Are there signs that play between dogs is about to turn into a fight? Is there a point that the human should stop the play before it gets dangerous?

There definitely are signs of when dogs are getting too stimulated and things could escalate. A lot of this comes from knowing your dog, along with dog body language.

For my dogs, I watch for more vocalization, a "rough" play style, tail and ear set when the dogs stop for a moment, and just general energy level.

You need to learn your dog's signs and then step in before it escalates. It takes a bit of practice but just remember it is easier to separate the dogs while they are still having a good time and let them calm down for a minute than it is to deal with a fight.

How about bringing a squirt gun or water sprayer to the dog park with you? My overly submissive Great Dane seems to attract the bully element at dog parks...I can't put her in the area for small dogs or I get the fish eye from other dog owners, so have stopped bringing her.

And my answer to that Doctor Coates would be, " Need to Know Basis: just keep you bully away from my very large, but loveable, well-mannered, docile and often submissive big baby boy/girl, and you won't need to know." It annoys me that the owners who know their dogs tend to be instigators and bullies, are the owners who pay the least attention when their dog is in an environment that often triggers bad behavior.

I'm not a big expert in this, but have some experience. It is rare, I believe, for real play to turn into real aggression. Play is play, aggression is something else, but it does help to learn the signs of play that does border on too rough. Dogs are very clear with their body language, with a few exceptions - Chow Chows and Akitas, for example, tend to be inscrutable, giving little or no warning before going after another dog. Keep that in mind. Sex differences matter too, with bitches being more tenacious once something starts. Prevention is the best answer, of course.

I protect my dogs best by learning to read the body language of other dogs, AND my own. My older girl, for example, is an excellent judge of character, and I can usually tell from her behavior if another dog is a bad actor. She will give me signs from quite a distance, and sure enough, I look in the direction of her attention and spot the suspect, usually he is giving off all kinds of signs, the most obvious is a stiff body posture, including freezing and staring. The tail gives a lot away, it will be held high, possibly wagging fast, could be not moving at all that indicates a threat. A waving tail held below the top line is friendly, tucked is fearful, wiggling fast is excitement, just a few guidelines. Don't let another dog T-bone yours - that's standing at 90 degrees with head over your dog's shoulders, this is a dominant stance, and could mean trouble in a flash, depending on how your dog responds. Straight on approach can be trouble, you should prefer a sideways approach. There are many, many things that, once you see them often enough you will learn to read. It's usually a combination of things that will tell you what to expect. Playing rough is something I try to stop early, by yelling "Knock it OFF!" in a low, manly voice, and I approach with confidence, not angry, but firmly. Call your dog in a high voice and trot in the other direction once you get his attention.

A dog intent on harming another dog will just be too fast for you to really intervene. Grabbing a rear leg or possibly a tail can help, but try very hard not to grab for a collar, you can easily be bitten, even by your own dog. Throw a ball, hard, at the aggressing dog, yell loudly, throw a balled up leash, a shoe, a water bottle, try to break the tension somehow.

Mostly, though, there is a lot of misunderstanding, lack of knowledge about the differences between rough play, a disagreement or argument, and a real dog fight. A real fight will be terrifying. Few people at dog parks see it coming. 'He just wants to say hi'.

One of the reasons I spent a lot of time learning to read dogs' body language is because I have witnessed some "real" dog fights, one that resulted in one of my dogs being seriously injured. It was not at a dog park, it was at my agility trainer's house, a dog from another class ran across the field to attack my dog - clearly on purpose, with intent to harm. Another bad day was at an obedience trial on the long sit, when a Great Dane got up, moved up the line before the stewards could react, and attacked the Great Dane sitting next to my hound. Really attacked, roaring noise, blood everywhere, the enormous tent poles knocked down, the stewards table collapsed and broken, two 200-lb. dogs intent on real harm. That experience gave me nightmares for a long time, and I quit showing in obedience for many years. I still am concerned about the group exercises, but I am better at reading dogs now, and feel somewhat safer. A well run trial will have experienced stewards - and a Novice judge that knows how to read dogs too, since Novice classes are where you will find the troublemakers.

Great information. Thanks for sharing your knowledge and experiences... much appreciated!

INSTEAD OF A WATER PISTOL HOW ABOUT A NORMAL BOTTLE OF WATER TO THE PET PARK INSTEAD? I CAME ACROSS A FIGHT AT THE ANIMAL SHELTER AS THE LADY I WAS WITH WAS LOOKING AT A DOG AND A PITBULL EXCAPED HIS CAGE, I YELLED BUT NOT LOUD ENOUGH I GUESS, THEY TRIED ALL BREAKING IT UP INSURING SOMEONE WOULD GET BIT, I THREW THE CONTENTS OF MY WATER BOTTLE AT THEM AND IT WORKED, EVEN ON THE PITTY

I would always watch the dogs playing, you never know when one may get too rough and hurt they other one by mistake or any other reason.
If there is ever any wounds I never take a chance anymore. At the very least they may need antibiotics, there is just too many germs in a dogs mouth, and remember dogs most times grab a hold and shake the hold back and forth letting in more germs and deeper then you think.
Also I was told the best way to break up a fight is have a person on each dog and pick up both hind legs, which throws them off balance most time there is a spit second they both will break the hold they have to get abetter hold on each other, at that point pull them away from each other and do not let them get loose. By that time some other people would have gathered around. Once the dog has settled get a leash on them, but make sure they are settled because at this point the person putting on the leash could get bit. Keep a hold of the hind legs and it is almost impossible for any dog to reach behind and bite you.
Cheryl

We previously had a boxer who just loved people but could not be around other dogs at all. (She was a rescue, so we really didn't know her history.) On a couple of occassions, other dogs did come into our yard, and there was fight. Someone told me to grab and lift up the back legs of the dog(s) to break up the fight. Since my dog was the aggressor, we grabbed her back legs, and it worked! With her back legs in the air, she had to keep her front legs on the ground and couldn't use them to attack. It also gave the other dog a chance to get away, or for someone to get them away. Also, with her back legs held, she couldn't turn around to bite the leg-grabber. I don't know how you feel about this method, but it was effective for us!
I now have two rescued boxer girls who wouldn't hurt a fly, but they do play rough with each other. They seem to like it, and no one gets hurt, but I am curious too, what do we look for as a sign that this play could turn aggressive? BTW, Apollo is a VERY handsome boy!

I first saw this technique demonstrated by a trainer of German Shepherds. I've used what I call the "dog wheelbarrow" list a number of times to successfully break up fierce fights.

I always grab the more aggressive dog and lift his rear legs VERY high and rapidly, which has the dual effect of surprise and throwing him off balance. I even hold the legs up and tilt to keep him off balance while someone else pulls the other dog to safety.

A stream or bucket of water -- even a major dousing from a garden hose --
will rarely back down fighting dogs. Unless you have a serious fire hose at hand that pressurizes the water, you do not have the right tool.

meant to write :

"dog wheelbarrow" lift

I grew up with boxers and even as I was little I already used the back leg grabbing technique to separate fighting dogs. Well, it is not really the legs, I grab underneath the belly as dogs can be so fast and that is easier to get hold of. Important is to lift the rear part of the ground, then they lose the strength in the front. If there is a dog fight I do not encourage people to go in between, if they do not know what to do. But I stepped in a number of times - not necessarily when my dogs were involved, just fighting dogs - and picked the attacker, lifted him from the ground and the fight stopped.
Reg. your boxers, I had 2 rescue boxer girls and they were dog aggressive, I tried hard for 5 years to socialise them, but they were just too old. Now I have 2 lovely silly playful boxers (1 male, 1 female), again rescues, only those two love other dogs. Boxers tend to play a bit rougher than most other breeds, but I have never seen that turning into aggression. Unfortunately often other dog owners get scared and their reaction can lead to their dog trying to protect their owners which again can lead to aggression. I believe as dog owners we just have the responsibility to always watch our dogs when they are playing with other dogs and step in if need be, best before things escalate.
And you are right - Apollo is gorgeous! ;-)

Dagmar
www.animalconnection.com.au

This is unrelated to the fighting discussion, but Dagmar, your story just goes to prove my suspicion that once you've lived with a boxer, there just is no other breed! People are often intimidated by them, maybe because of their resemblance to pit bulls, or because of their obvious strength, but they are just great, silly clown dogs - perpetually goofy puppies that will make you laugh every single day! Once a boxer owner, always a boxer owner! (And kudos for rescuing yours too!)

I couldn't agree more about Boxers. I also have a Boxer, also named Apollo. I am so, so in love with him.

Great tips for breaking up fights, I hope I never have to use them but they are good to know.

My dog would wiggle right out of my hands if I lifted his hind legs in the air and he is a 13 lb Shih Tzu!! But when considering this as a technique to break up fighting dogs... it makes so much sense and a lot better than going in between or grabbing for a collar. And I think the most important part of your comment is when you said that you KNEW YOU DOGS (whatever the breed... breed is irrelevant) WERE NOT DOG FRIENDLY. With that knowledge, you can make their (and your) environment much more comfortable and safe. I am so happy that you have now rescued two boxers who enjoy other canine friends! If a dog is not comfortable around other dogs/animals, it doesn't make them bad dogs... heck, I have people I don't like to be around!!! And, some prob feel the same about me. And if reference to boxers playing rougher than some other breeds... in my opinion, after getting to know a few boxers, I think that they have this puppy quality about them that NEVER goes away... they love to play and do not realize they're not the size of a teacup poodle! They puppy play without regard for their age, size or weight... big loveable puppies... that's my experience with boxers. Of course you get a dog, of any breed, that can be aggressive despite all human efforts to gear them toward the social animal we desire them to be... doesn't mean the dog is bad or vicious, just that WE KNOW them well enough to keep them and others safe.
Thanks for sharing with us... really good information!

Many dog fights involve a lot of threat display with quick bites and releases, but there are many dogs and breeds that grab and shake during a fight. More often than not, these types of dogs do not give up their grip of the other dog very easily and you have to use other means to separate them. I agree that the first thing to try is water if you have it handy, but if you don't, or it doesn't work you can grab the rear legs of the dog gripping and scissor their hips in between your legs. The first thing this does is remove any leverage the dog has since most of their power is generated via their hind legs. If you have a break stick handy (not likely), you can use it now. If not, it is often necessary to use the dog's collar or if they aren't wearing one, a leash to momentarily cut off the dog's air supply so they will release their hold.

I think that it's also important to note to take a deep breath and count to five before you have to jump into the middle of a fight. More often than not we panic during these times and do not think before we move in and those few seconds of thought before trying to break up a fight can be the difference in minor or major injuries for the dogs and humans involved.

Using a break stick on ANY breed except bully breeds is asking to get bit. Most dogs will redirect when broken apart this way and the human is the one in the way.


Please don't use one unless you know what you're doing as you could also injure the dog.

Have you ever seen a Jack Russell fight? They grab and shake just the same as a bull breed

In our experience, if there are two people present, each can grab a dog by the hind legs, twist to the right and pull back hard. This throws the dogs off balance and breaks their grip. Keep dragging backwards until they can be physically/visually separated. We have 10 great danes and take in rescues, so the occasional fight happens, and this has been a great help. We also find that keeping an air horn nearby to get their attention helps!

I remember Jasmine's best buddy, also a Boxer. He too had playful behaviors which weren't always a good idea, such as running fast straight at the dog, expecting the dog to engage in play but not stopping when the other dog did not! He too got bitten a number of times.

I hear NYC radio ads pitching treadmills and treadwheels as indoor exercise contraptions for city dogs. Instinctively I hate them, but would really appreciate a post on the topic by Dr. Coates.

What is her opinion of their effect not just on a dog's cardiovascular condition, but a dog's mental, social and emotional state? The image of fighting dogs being forced to run on treadmills is an image I cannot ignore ...

This link goes to the products I hear advertised: http://gopetusa.com/

Treadmills are wonderful tools for active dogs who have owners that can't meet their activity needs either due to time, mobility, weather, etc...Old time dog fighters used to use slat mills to help condition their dogs back in the day but that isn't to say these aren't useful tools for owners today who just want to safely exercise their dogs. Most sporting dogs were designed to run, so why wouldn't you think a treadmill would be a helpful tool for a dog assuming owners are introducing the dogs to a mill in a safe and positive manner and are supervising the dog the entire time.

And not for nothing, but most of those old time dog fighters weren't necessarily "forcing" their dogs to run. Most high drive sporting breeds LOVE spending time on a mill

Sometimes it's hard to tell if playing will turn to fighting - my dog doesn't like it when male dogs sniff her and she will often growl at them, even if they are playing.

But what do you do if your pet fights YOU and votes for political opposition? Check out this wonderfully funny column on pets & politics: http://www.courant.com/news/opinion/hc-op-barreca-dogs-cats-politics-0907-20120906,0,2295857.column

Dr. Coates, (Please read when you have some extra time... no hurry for a reply, so please just get to it when you have the chance/opportunity/xtra 36 hours...LOL)
Six years ago my son and daughter-in-law adopted a Basset pup of 8 wks from, what we now know to be, a puppy mill. My son was in the USAF and they were newlyweds far from home so they wanted a puppy. One that could be considered a "man's dog," but still a comfortable size for on base housing! When Scooter was 6 mos he bit (ripped and drew lots of blood) my daughter-in-law who was attempting to remove her Physics book that Scooter had drug under their bed. They began to recognize unacceptable behaviors starting at appx 4 months... destruction of her books, military issued boots, his own toys and bedding, furniture in the bedroom only, and a few other items. He also became possessive of all space and items under their bed. Finally it came, at 6 mos he ripped through my daughter-in-law's (referred to as d/i/l henceforth) thumb and hand. They hired professionals to help them with the escalation in his aggressive behaviors, as they increased rapidly over the next few months. Before he was a yr old my son had rec'd stitches 3 times, my d/i/l once and a friend once. They sheltered him and others from him, because his triggers could not be identified, thus isolated and worked through.

Over three years went by and my son and his wife moved back to our home state, following his 4yr enlistment. Scooter's behaviors had not worsened; however they had not improved either. They were unable to kennel him, even in doggie resorts, when they traveled b/c his reputation had spread through the veterinary/kennel/doggie resort community, thus I became his babysitter when they needed. Scooter had never displayed aggression towards me, but did bit my youngest son who required and ER visit. They spent over 10k through the years on trainers, dog behaviorists and even a desperate call to a pet psyche healer. Scooter made no positive progress; however, his negative behavior continued without escalation for years.

Scooter turned 6 on Valentine's day 2012. I was dogsitting him while my son and his wife went away in May, during a break between semesters at LSU. I knew many of his quirks and triggers and was able to care for him without fear or anticipation of the worst. I knew not to approach him when he slept or even pass by close enough for him to make a grab for my ankle if he was lying down or resting. This poor animal seemed so uncomfortable in his own skin... always looking for ways to defend himself against nonthreatening acts... always positioning himself where he could not be cornered, sleeping in the middle of a room but still aware of all movement around him and straight up to a sit if anyone shifted in their seat, changed/modified their position, stood up to exit the room, etc.... Scooter was a restless soul and it was so upsetting to my son and his wife who knew that having children would mean putting Scooter down. He could not be trusted in another family setting and we all knew it. I knew that other animals agitated this beautiful basset, so my mother dogsat my dogs in an effort to make Scooter as comfortable as possible. One morning I was sitting next to him on the couch, drinking coffee and watching morning news, while I scratched his belly, which he presented to me,...with his solid and powerful tail just wagging away (not in an over stimulated or over excited way... just wagging). I leaned over to set my coffee down on the coffee table then stood up b/c it was time for him to go out for potty. As I steadied my feet on the floor, he too arose and steadied his feet on the couch... looking up at me with a hound smile and tail still wagging. I then reached toward him to pat his head and lead him down off the couch and... he threw his head to the side and snapped at me... not a snipp or warning snap to send me a message, but a full out take a finger off grab at my hand. Thankfully he missed; however, he then jumped off of the couch and came after me growling and teeth gnashing with white foam dripping from corners of his lips (no... he was not rabid). And before I could open the utility door to escape, he lunged forward for a REAL bite. Had I not still been in my P.J.s with loose fitting boxer shorts (for ladies!), he would have taken a piece out of my thigh. He ripped my shorts, but did not leave a scrape or scratch on me. This basset hound went from threat level 0, pass def-coms 5 thru 1, and launched a head on, unprovoked attack. What frightened me the most was that he gave no, ABSOLUTELY NO cues suggesting the possibility of attack. On the contrary, his signals were that of basset bliss, excitement at the words "outside", and that silly playful head tilted back to see your face with that goofy drooley hound smile and his long body gyrating side to side with each swing of his tail. He loved head pats, head rubs, head hugs,... he had no triggers associated with his head, so my going to place my hand on his head should not have (ordinarily) caused him to snip or growl, much less trigger an ATTACK.

When his parents arrived a few days later I felt obligated to tell them of the event, which did not reoccur during the rest of his stay. They confided that they had been thinking of euthanasia since Nov. 2011 because of a serious attack on my son on Thanksgiving Day, to which I was oblivious b/c they did not want to worry me. When they dropped him off, they did warn me that he had an aggressive episode a few months prior and that it was serious, but failed to mention who the target was. They explained that back in Nov 2011, they went to a veterinarian to have Scooter put down b/c his behavior was too unpredictable and was getting worst as he aged. However, the facility (all facilities that offer euthanasia in Baton Rouge, LA) required that the dog be kenneled for two weeks and evaluated by a canine behaviorist to see if he was "perhaps a suitable pet for someone else"... even though my son brought all the documentation showing the lengths they went to to try and help their beloved dog. And, in addition, it would cost $250.00 plus the cost of shelter, food and therapy for two weeks. The money was not the issue; however, my son could not leave this dog that he loved so much and knew would be miserable pinned up in a cage for two weeks; nor could he bare to consider that some behaviorist might deem Scooter fit for adoption, thus leaving the possibility for someone, someone's baby or child, or someone's animal to be seriously injured or worst. The facility made it clear that they could NEVER check on, see their dog or change their minds, once they surrendered him.

They took Scooter back home, knowing he would deteriorate mentally, emotionally and physically locked in a cage for two weeks. So, life went on... sort of.

After I informed them of the incident with Scooter, they knew it was time to take action; so we took him to my vet here in Evangeline Parish (much more rural and less populated). Dr. Ned was wonderful about the whole situation and showed such compassion and understanding. What he told them and how he handled the entire process helped ease their guilt and reassured them that their actions were benefiting their beloved Scooter in ways they had not considered or imagined. He told them that the way Scooter was wired, cognitively speaking, caused him great anxiety and discomfort and that as time went on, his suffering only worsened in positive correlation with his behavior. Dr. Ned explained it this way: If you have ever been sick for a few days and started running a fairly high temperature, then you began to feel better and your fever was lower, but still there... It is like you want to move around and get back to normal behaviors and routines, but that lower grade temp still has you aching, tired, lethargic and miserable... he told them that Scooter felt that way everyday of his life... that this great dog just NEVER felt safe and comfortable in his own skin. That made so much sense to me, and to my son and his wife. After 6 yrs... sure they (we) cried, but for once, they felt as if they had helped the dog they loved so dearly, by ending his suffering. This vet made them recognize, for the first time, that Scooter was suffering... and knowing that made their decision easier and void of guilt. The vet also informed them that Scooter suffered from noncued/nonprovoked aggression, through NO ONE'S fault... not even Scooters!! He said that such aggression was actually a disorder of sorts and was much more dangerous than they really had imagined.

Anyway Dr. Coates... sorry my story is so long. I was trying to be thorough in an effort to present you with a pretty good picture of what happened, so that I could inquire as to whether or not you have come across a dog with this same aggression patterns/behaviors/disorder...

What a terrible thing to endure, for your family and for the dog. It's too bad that your family didn't meet Dr. Ned much earlier, someone who was able to determine the serious nature of the dog's issues.

Too many vets and trainers and self-proclaimed "behaviorists" are willing to blame the owners for something like this - the Baton Rouge shelter was the most appalling example. How DARE they challenge your authority as the dog's owners! You had enormous evidence that this dog could be a terrible liability for "someone else". How arrogant and ignorant. It makes me seethe thinking of it. You were right to handle this as you did, and thank goodness Dr. Ned was able to put the situation into perspective from the dog's point of view. He suffered mental pain, but pain nonetheless.

As a trainer, I'm afraid I see this attitude a lot, which is promulgated by rescue groups who believe that they can save EVERY animal, and rush to blame owners and breeders for what is a very complicated issue. Blaming doesn't solve the problem anyway. I see people excuse dangerous behavior by saying 'he's a rescue, he was abused' - which means what . . .? That we should all just accept biting and growling at people, attacking other dogs, snapping over food? No one thinks of their liability, what can happen if this behavior isn't fixed - OR, the dog is put out of its misery after all good faith efforts have failed. With a history like this poor dog had, how can anyone fault you for taking this final step to relieve the suffering of everyone, particularly your family. Sadness, yes, but guilt? No way.

My parent breed club's rescue committee works very hard to do the right thing with the rare dog they receive that has a similar problem. But there is resistance from the public to any decision to euthanize an aggressive dog, even when this is clearly the safest and most humane thing to do.

I'm so glad to see Dr. Coates agrees with this final step.