This isn't something that seems abnormal to me to have done. I've been around birds and bird people more than I have the fur legged furry types. I now have my dog and I still haven't heard necropsy being talked about much. In my life though, I know more people with birds than I do dogs still and that could be why I haven't heard the topic brought up often.

When it comes to birds though, I know of a lot of parrot owners who have had a necropsy done when the bird dies suddenly. This seems especially important when there is more than one bird in the household. Making sure it isn't something toxic in the environment, a contagious disease, etc. In other cases, the owner just wants to know why. I can understand that. You have a seemingly healthy young bird that you've been taken excellent care of die on you, you want to know why.

That being said, while I probably couldn't justify paying for one at this moment in time, if God forbid something happened to one of my animals and the avian vet or my dog's vet asked if they could do a necropsy, I would consent. To know why is a good thing. Plus, if it could further understanding and education, it kind of makes you feel like their death wasn't in vain. If that makes any sense.

Hi,

Sometimes the vets will want to do the necropsy for *them* as well as for you. There have been times that my primary vet wanted to do a necropsy more because he wanted it than we wanted it, and we let him. If he thinks opening up one of our passed pets will help other people learn about what happens, then go ahead and cut away. (Yes, I know the 'cut away' may sound callous, heartless, etc. I just tend to be a blunt person. And it's not a negative connotation between us and our vet, because they know exactly what I mean by it.)

It takes courage for the vet to offer this to a bereaved owner, and for the owner to accept or even consider. Thank you for reminding everyone of this often overlooked venue, and not only in a forensic context. I have to admit I've only done necropsies at the owner's request, not on my own initiative, as I simply have not mastered the art of offering this service. It's a very sensitive issue, and not only for the owner. Sometimes even for veterinarians themselves. A boss I previously worked for was slightly shocked when I asked her if a deceased cat's owner might consider letting me do a necropsy at no charge (both to give her an answer, and out of my own curiosity). I think the general reluctance of veterinarians to offer necropsies has something to do with why we became veterinarians in the first place. We want to know why and how things happen, but we're shy to admit this lest the owner think we're using their animal's death to satisfy our curiosity. It all depends on what kind of relationship you have with that owner.

A necropsy by a pathologist can be very costly, but in most cases it's quite appropriate for the general practitioner to do the work of gathering tissue samples for a pathologist to analyze.

You raise an excellent point: courage. The good news here is that it doesn't take that much when you've worked at the same hospital for more than ten years. When you know many of your clients that well it's much easier.

I also wanted to clarify: If I do a necropsy for my own edification (and that of the staff's, too), I don't charge. Which means I rarely charge for the service itself.

Yes, I would gladly agree to a necropsy if my vet offered to do one. My pets rarely seem to get clear-cut illnesses, and I have always thought my pet's death could serve other animals if his or her illness was better understood. Not to mention satisfying my own curiosity. I've usually sunk so much money into the final year's medical care that I can't swing the additional expense of a necropsy when a pet dies. Your article has given me the impetus to talk with my vet about this and find out if she would like to do a necropsy for better understanding of the ill-defined diseases.

Never knew it was call Neropsie in animals.....Sad it cost so much...This is how just plain evil people, get by with hurting or to kill someone Pet. This why we have 8 foot tall fence. Keeps my Pet Kids in, But mostly to keep people out.

In all but two cases, we've known what was the major contributor to my critters' demise.

I asked about a post for a kitty that had multiple problems, but also had unexplained "episodes" of confusion and walking along the wall. The doctors agreed that they weren't mini-strokes or seizures. (The internist was baffled, too.) The vet said that a post would likely not provide any answers since her problem was probably neurological.

In the case of an 18 1/2 year-old kitty that seemed fine the day before, I requested a post. The vet agreed and sent samples to the pathologist. Although we didn't get a definitive answer, there was a great deal of pancreatitis and possibly blocked bile ducts.

Emotionally, I'm not sure I would be able to drive my frozen kitty's body several hours to a university, though. However, who knows what you can do if you suspect foul play.

>>The vet said that a post would likely not provide any answers since her problem was probably neurological.>>

This would be a case in which a trained veterinary pathologist almost certainly could find answers. Most general practitioners don't perform good neuro necropsies. I'm not trying to be graphic here, but it is challenging to extract the brain and spinal cord, and the lesions are frequently best seen via histopathology.

Overall, while necropsies sometimes provide obvious answers grossly (inspection of organs and tissues), histopathology (fixed and stained tissue slides examined under a microscope) provides a much more comprehensive answer. Histopathology requires the services of a pathologist. It would be highly unusual for a veterinarian in general practice to prepare or evaluate histopathology slides; it just isn't done. For best results, the pathologist should perform the necropsy and collect the tissue samples. It's true some veterinarians in general practice can perform a good "necropsy in a bottle" (collect tissue samples, preserve in formalin, and send to the pathologist for histopathology), but there is an art and science to selecting and sampling tissue. Diseased tissue can be fragile, and lesions are often subtle.

Veterinary pathologists have completed a residency and become board-certified (ACVP). They've had the same number of years of training as a boarded surgeon (ACVS), cardiologist (ACVIM-cardiology), or critical care veterinarian (ACVECC). That's why it's more expensive for a boarded pathologist to perform a necropsy - they're highly trained specialists, and they do not perform necropsies for free.

Many veterinarians in general practice refer clients to boarded pathologists for necropsies for the same reason they refer clients to surgeons, cardiologists, and ophthalmologists: it's an effort to provide the best possible care for their patients. Believe it or not, it is possible to commit malpractice by performing a substandard necropsy. In the case above of the alleged dog poisoning, it would be essential to obtain the best possible evidence; a half-baked necropsy performed by a veterinarian in general practice is next to useless, legally.

One word about toxicology: unless there's some idea of what to look for, these cases easily run into thousands of dollars in multiple screening tests. I don't deal with many forensic toxicology cases, but I certainly do see my share of drug test requests prior to purchase of a horse. It's not possible to test for "everything". There isn't a test for "everything", as "everything" is limited only by the imagination of the criminal mind.

Yes, it's emotionally difficult to transport a deceased pet to the pathologist, but at this time there is no hearse service for animals (for large animals, we sometimes use flatbeds, or stock trailers). The pathologists and techs at my school were kind and understanding when owners brought in pets. They know it's tough.

Thank you, Equine DVM, for the excellent explanation.

Trying to remember a conversation almost 10 years ago, I think the vet said something about the problem was likely within the tiny blood vessels in her brain which would be almost impossible to find. She also had multiple other problems so there wasn't any question regarding medical care or home nursing.

Had there been any question of care, I would have done it in a minute. My request was simply a "I really wish I knew what caused her 'episodes'". I'm sure there are several doctors and internists that would have like to know, too.

>>My request was simply a "I really wish I knew what caused her 'episodes'". I'm sure there are several doctors and internists that would have like to know, too.>>

That's frequently the case in veterinary medicine: even if we know why, is there anything we can do about it?

For a thoughtful and illuminating discussion of autopsy (in humans), I recommend an essay by Atul Gawande in his first book, _Complications_. I suspect that veterinarians - just like physicians - frequently assume, but do not actually know, why their patients die. One practical issue, of course, is persuading someone to pay the pathologist: the owner, in the case of a pet; or the insurance company, in the case of a human.

I'm most likely to recommend necropsy if it's a public health concern (rabies suspect = #1), an unexpected death, a legal case, an insured horse, multiple animals involved, or the owner needs closure, for whatever reason. I won't tackle legal, insured, public health, owner needs closure, or the latest of multiple animals myself; I ship them all to the veterinary school pathology department. Sometimes I'll look at a sudden death myself, because it's often a ruptured colic. It depends.

"That's frequently the case in veterinary medicine: even if we know why, is there anything we can do about it?"

Absolutely. My vet has saved me countless fees with that line of thought. He will say something to the effect of, "The test would likely tell us that's it's *** for sure. However, there's no treatment for ***." or "It's either A or B and there's no treatment for either."

As a result, there's no reason to put the critter through any testing.

When my Louise was diagnosed with adenocarcinoma, my first reaction was to knock her out and do a biopsy. He gently told me that he was 99.9% sure. He could do a biopsy, but would it be fair to Louise. He was so right and I'm so glad we didn't do it.

I have taken advantage of having necropsies done in the past, especially when a pet bird has died suddenly without overy symptoms. It gave me great peace of mind to have verification that the cause of death was not any mistake or neglect on my part. I was so afraid that I would continue to inflict my mistakes and/or ignorance on future pets. However, I live in the Boston area, so there are several options for such a service. I know that is not always the case.

I agree with bcompvp.
If my vet wanted to do a necropsy, I would absolutely agree. there are benefits for the vet (experience), and I would want to know if I had done something to cause the death, so I could ensure that I would never make that mistake in the future.

I'm feeling particularly snarky today, but one might point out that RARELY EVER in the case of "my neighbor hates me and my dog and my dog suspiciously died suddenly", does the neighbor actually poison the dog.

The last case I saw of this was a million year old unneutered male boxer who had not been to the veterinarian since his puppy vaccines. The owners reported a syncopal-like episode in the yard after which his gums went pale and he died. They swore the neighbor poisoned this dog (but not the second dog, who was normal). Most likely cause of death? Probably boxer cardiomyopathy. The owners were hell-bent on performing a necropsy to frame their neighbors until I told them the cost of a necropsy was $800. I feel like the vast majority of the "neighbor poisoned my dog" stories go this way.

On a second note, I can't help but feel that the university charges necropsy fees this way to help screen out clients like this (where a cause of death will never be found since we can't actually TEST for poisoning). At my school, necropsies on hospitalized inpatients were free.

>>one might point out that RARELY EVER in the case of "my neighbor hates me and my dog and my dog suspiciously died suddenly", does the neighbor actually poison the dog.>>

Totally agree, 100%. I get: "my neighbor complains about my horse, the manure, the smell, the flies, etc. so I think he poisoned my horse". Those cases are referred directly to the veterinary school pathology department.

The only time there was mystery about cause of death, it was a youngish cat who dropped dead on the weekend, unwitnessed. By the time we found her it was too far post mortem for a necropsy to tell us much -- and we had a pretty good guess about what likely happened, given her history.

I would absolutely consent to a necropsy if asked. I would not pay for it if it was the vet's request rather than mine. Since we bury our own dead on our farm, I would want the dog or cat's body back in some sort of reasonably non-distressing condition for burial, or if that was not possible, I would ask that the vet cover the cost of cremation so we could inter the ashes with the rest of the family. I could cope with a sewn-up dog or cat corpse, but probably not with a beheaded one.

I've done two DIY necropsies on chickens who died suddenly, and surprisingly, found cause of death in both. So that was interesting. (Necropsy on a chicken is pretty similar to dressing out a chicken, just involves opening the chest before disturbing the innards.) If a vet wanted to do a necropsy on a livestock animal, I wouldn't be concerned about getting the body back

I don't "get" you at all. You'll cut up your own dead chickens because you want to know why/how they died.

But won't pay for someone qualified to necropsy a dog or a cat unless YOU want it done. If the vet suggests it, you won't pay for it. WTH?

And then - you want the vet to pay for the cremation? Beheaded pets? Where the heck do you live? Appalachia? They don't cut off the head to examine the brain - they remove the organ. Slices are made, then it does back in the head...

Years of being a vet tech & thought I'd heard it all until now...

WOW...

Yes, as a matter of fact, I DO choose to live in Appalachia. Was that meant to be an insult?

I am also Ivy-league edjimicated and have all of my own teeth. In case you were wondering.

Is there something wrong with a farmer performing a DIY necropsy on poultry? If so, please explain what that would be. Should I have taken the dead three-dollar chicken to a pathologist, or perhaps interred her with the rites of Christian burial?

(In case you were wondering, cause of death on the first chook was a ruptured aorta, and on the second, CHF, which was consistent with common causes of mortality for their age and genetics. I was able to rule out infectious agents and parasites, which would have necessitated action to protect the rest of my large flock.)

Dr. Khuly was discussing the necropsy as an element of scientific inquiry and professional development for the veterinarian. I'm all for that, and will support it. But I won't pay for it just because my animal happens to be the one that has stumped the vet and aroused his curiosity. It's not a service to me unless *I* am the one requesting it. It's not my responsibility to personally pay for the professional to satisfy his curiosity.

So, in short, sod off. You aren't qualified to be the snob you aspire to be.

Got your cackles up. huh? :o)

The English word is "hackle." I generally don't piloerect while laughing hysterically, so that would be no sale.

I don't know what language you think you are speaking, Dearie, but you are out of your league.

>>Dr. Khuly was discussing the necropsy as an element of scientific inquiry and professional development for the veterinarian. I'm all for that, and will support it. But I won't pay for it just because my animal happens to be the one that has stumped the vet and aroused his curiosity.>>

I don't think that's what Dr. Khuly was saying at all. I think she mostly suggests necropsy to clients for some of the reasons I listed above vs. personal curiosity. Grieving clients don't usually think "necropsy!" when they're looking for closure, and part of a veterinarian's job is to offer all the options. Many people don't know veterinary pathologists exist ("like Quincy for pets!").

If a client declines, that's the end of it. I'm generally not going to perform a necropsy solely because I'm "stumped" or for "professional development", just as I don't foot the bill for MRI or CT scan just because I'd learn something (which I would, no doubt). I'll muddle through.

On the one occasion I did perform a necropsy at no charge, it was NOT for diagnostic purposes. The horse had an unusual and unfortunately fatal problem, which we diagnosed antemortem. The necropsy findings and photos added greatly to the case report a colleague and I intend to publish and/or present on the case. The client gave permission for us to write about her horse and is supportive and appreciative.

BTW, I don't personally care what my clients do with their dead farm animals (or pets, actually), but if they call me AFTER they've sliced up the animal and ask for a second opinion, I refer them to the veterinary school. Same as when they call me after it's been dead and buried for a few days, which is another story.

Thank you, EquineVet - very well said.

Fair enough. Dr. Khuly's question was "Would you allow a necropsy if the vet requested it?"

Not "Under what circumstances would you request a necropsy?"

But it is, apparently, really two questions --

A question about emotional state: After the unexplained death of a pet, is the pet owner able to reconcile his or her grief with a spirit of inquiry?

And a financial question: Are you willing to *pay* a veterinarian to perform a necropsy that he or she has suggested? To which I would add: How much? Under what circumstances?

Just because a pet owner is willing to go along with a necropsy for whatever reason does not mean that he or she is willing to, or able to, pay for it. Especially the $800 figure cited by another commenter.

When the owner has requested the post-mortem, that's an entirely different issue.

I certainly understand why you would decline to attempt a necropsy on an animal someone has already carved up, and sincerely hope that this situation is limited to livestock clients. If my DIY sudden-death chicken necropsies had been inconclusive -- which I thought the most likely outcome -- I wouldn't have dreamed of asking anyone else to try to make sense of what I'd already hashed up. I'd have done what most flock owners do -- watched my birds carefully for signs of illness, waited to see if there were any more deaths, and gotten a freshly dead bird to the extension lab ASAP if there were any more mystery deaths. Most people understand what I thought went without saying, which is that the death of a chicken that was destined for the stewpot one day does not elicit powerful and complex feelings of grief in its owner.

As for asking for a necropsy on an already-buried pet ... one does have to wonder.

>>A question about emotional state: After the unexplained death of a pet, is the pet owner able to reconcile his or her grief with a spirit of inquiry?>>

Sometimes. In cases when a grieving client asks why I think the pet died suddenly, I give a few common possibilities then say: "the only way to know for sure would be to perform a necropsy". If the client recoils, that's it; I explain that some people have a need to know, and some don't, and either decision is okay with me.

>>And a financial question: Are you willing to *pay* a veterinarian to perform a necropsy that he or she has suggested? To which I would add: How much? Under what circumstances?>>

In many of these cases the client pays the pathologist, not me. There's no financial incentive there for me. Sometimes the client wants only me to perform the necropsy, in which case we discuss cost. It's true that sometimes the client wants a necropsy, but doesn't want to pay either a pathologist OR me. In that case, I document that necropsy was declined and move on. Can't have it both ways.

Keep in mind that I'm usually not baffled when my patients die. Frequently, their "unexpected" deaths are not unexpected to me. Sad, yes.

>>Especially the $800 figure cited by another commenter.

As I already explained, that's because pathologists are specialists. They charge appropriately for their professional expertise.

>>I certainly understand why you would decline to attempt a necropsy on an animal someone has already carved up, and sincerely hope that this situation is limited to livestock clients.>>

If only.

>>...watched my birds carefully for signs of illness, waited to see if there were any more deaths, and gotten a freshly dead bird to the extension lab ASAP if there were any more mystery deaths.>>

Yes, that's the procedure with farm animals, whether they're poultry, pigs, sheep or whatever.

>>As for asking for a necropsy on an already-buried pet ... one does have to wonder.>>

I used to wonder. Now I just swap stories with my colleagues.

There is an important distinction here that I think was missed in these comments. We're not talking about a vet suggesting a necropsy because they think the owner might want it. We are talking about a vet requesting a necropsy because the vet would like answers. I've reached this conclusion because Dr. Khuly prefaced her question with these statements:

"After all, a necropsy can be important for all kinds of reasons, but mostly because knowing what lies beneath is critical to a scientist's understanding of the disease process(es) at hand."

"And yet many of us are keenly aware that to investigate after death is to advance our skills for the betterment of animal medicine."

And then actual question, "Would you consent to a necropsy for your pet if your vet requested one?"

It depends. If I feel that the vet has a good reason for wanting to do the necropsy, and they're doing it at their expense, then sure.

I would not be keen to pay for a necropsy requested by the vet, because it is not for the benefit of myself or my pet, it is for the continuing education of the veterinarian. No doubt that this a worthy goal, but it's not my responsibility to fund it.

>>We're not talking about a vet suggesting a necropsy because they think the owner might want it. We are talking about a vet requesting a necropsy because the vet would like answers.>>

If I suggest necropsy but the client isn't sufficiently interested in knowing why an animal died to be willing to pay a pathologist, well then, no necropsy. No pressure, either, BTW, any more than I'd pressure a client to pay for an MRI, nuclear scan, etc., even though these tests are educational for me, too.

In the real world, on a daily basis, it's far more likely a client will decline testing that would be useful in diagnosing or treating a LIVING animal vs. decline to pay for a necropsy. I made my peace with that a while ago; I'm not in the habit of running freebie bloodwork or shooting "extra" views with the x-ray machine.

The fact is, a number of my grieving clients have found solace in necropsy findings. Based on these experiences, I'd be remiss in failing to mention necropsy - performed by a pathologist - as an option.

When Ema the rescue Frenchie with myriad congenital heart conditions passed away during surgery, the Cardiologist asked to perform a necropsy on her. I was actually reluctant to agree - emotionally, I felt she'd been through enough.

Rational thinking won out, when her team explained to me that a necropsy would give them closure (what went wrong?), as well as serving as a learning tool for future dogs with her conditions.

They immediately stated that the necropsy would be done at their cost. I would not have expected anything different.

If *I* ask for a necropsy (which I've done, on at least three occasions, with newborn puppies who died 'mysteriously'), I've paid. When my veterinarians have asked to do so, for whatever their reasons are at that time, it's always been a given to me that *they* will absorb the costs.

I hardly think this is unreasonable, nor do I think it's unreasonable for Heather to want the bodies of her necropsied pets back relatively intact.

And as I said, if "relatively intact" is for some reason not an option, cremains are acceptable to me -- but not at a cost of several hundred dollars, which is what it might run for a large dog.

I am more sentimental about my working dogs' and pets' bodies than I am about my own. I'm donating all of my own unworthy carcass to whatever medical or scientific use seems best, and trying to figure out a way that the rest can be distributed as training material to the cadaver dog and general SAR handlers who come after me.

If my dearly beloved dog died suddenly or had an illness that the scientific community could learn from if a necropsy was performed, I absolutely would have it done.

I absolutely would - & have - had necropsies done when either the vet or me were unsure of the cause of death.

The knowledge has proven to be invaluable for both the doctor & the owner.

I would, and have, given permission for necropsy. My oncology vet requested it after treating my cat for two years. I would have said yes even if he hadn't pleaded "I can learn so much more and maybe save another". I have great respect for him, he has a passion for education and helping cancer patients (even if it is "just a cat"). He was the third vet we went to and the only one that said we could make her more comfortable and prolong her life.

I have had 2 done, both at my request. One kitty suddenly died without warning. Only symptom had been a slight cough, and we had been to the vet recently about it. Other one was kitty who was very sick for no particular reason. Both necropsies done by my vet provided the answers. Also the charge was less than $100 - one was done a long time ago and one more recently. It provided much needed peace of mind.

A necropsy was offered when our cat Boo died mysteriously in our backyard, but we declined. In the haze of our grief we thought "she's gone, how is this going to help her?"

In retrospect I wish we had gone ahead with it. She was a healthy indoor/outdoor cat, a Mighty Hunter in great physical condition and in the prime of her life at 8 years old. I still wonder what killed her. Was it a bite from a black widow? We had a bumper crop of them that year. Had she been hit by a car and came home to die? (Unlikely - a) she was a street cat in Berkeley when we found her at a year and a half old and b) we live on a very quiet street.) We looked at her body very carefully and there was no external damage to her or her lovely black coat - nothing to give us a clue. She hadn't been in a fight with anything that left any tell-tale signs...

It's been 3 years since we lost her and I still think about it. Was it really the widows like my husband thinks? Did we do her a disservice by not having a necropsy? Sadly, I think we did and that makes me feel like I fell down on my job as a "critter mom" and caretaker of my pets.

The cost truly is an issue, especially when one has spent over $1000 just for the final vet bills - i.e. an overnight stay at an emergency hospital, i/v fluids, diagnostic tests, and finally euthanasia. This was the case with two of my dogs, and they were at or near the end of their natural life expectancy, but had no specific known disease. I would like to know what happened, but is it worth the price? I don't know as it was never discussed. For a younger pet I might have asked but it's hard to spend a big chunk of money that isn't going to benefit my pet's health, just to know the answer.

I would have no problem okaying a necropsy if the vet felt it would be beneficial... provided the remains could be cremated and returned to me afterwards.

I wish I'd thought to request a necropsy for one of my cats. She'd had a long-standing condition we were never quite able to figure out, despite pulling out all the stops in the testing department. Her primary veterinarian suspects it was probably cancer, and we just didn't catch it.

I have agreed to the request by a vet. My dog had been treated for about 6 months for an autoimmune blood disease at a vet teaching hospital (UC Davis). She hadn't improved much, so her death wasn't exactly unexpected, but it hadn't seemed imminent either. The necropsy revealed massive internal infection, no doubt the result of the immune suppressing drugs she had been on. (She had had an opportunistic eye infection during treatment, so maybe the internal infection wasn't entirely unexpected.)

I wasn't charged for the necropsy--and probably wouldn't have agreed to pay for it (after spending about $10,000 on treatment, I was already stretched pretty thin!). I didn't really have a need for the necropsy, but I didn't object either.

My cat Toonces survived being given a massive, 30-unit insulin overdose by his vet's son, which then went untreated for 24 hours, while Toonces was admitted for a "medical board." Some medical board.

The neurologist who helped save his life -- one of the two vets I most admired -- told me when Toonces was released from ICU one month later that they really couldn't predict what the extent of his recovery could be. She knew he would never be 100 percent, but she thought 50% might be possible.

As it turned out, he relearned how to walk (but not so intentionally) and he relearned how to urinate on his own for the most part(something I never realized is a skill that is destroyed by brain damage). He relearned how to eat but couldn't control his head movements well enough to do so without help. He relearned, in time, how to groom. This last thing took the longest because it requires a lot of motor skill.

He never relearned how to us a litterbox or drink water on his own. He never relearned to jump or interact much. He meowed perhaps only two times between coming home and his death 2 years later.

I finally had to let him go when he had breakthrough seizures in spite of his meds (due to the brain damage) and was finally unable to relearn to walk or urinate.

The neurologist expressed an interest in doing a necropsy to study how the neurons had try to regrow. She said they see lots of insulin overdoses, but few who have such severe damage who nonetheless survive. She wanted to see what the pattern was.

I asked her if they could put his body back together afterward. That was probably a dumb question, but the answer was no.

I asked her if people would learn from it. Would some paper be written on what they saw that students could learn from?

She said "no", it would just be her and a few others at that hospital.

I thought about it.

I had decided that the most appropriate way to deal with Toonces remains was to bury him. He had loved the outdoors. He had never really wanted to be forced to be an indoor cat. When he was a youngster and in his prime -- till he was about 7 or so -- he flew past the legs of people coming in the door every chance he could. Leading to many sleepless nights for me while he had his great adventure. One apartment in the city I lived in, I learned that he was opening the cracked windows further to let himself out. I am not kidding.

Later I would walk him on a leash from time to time, and the only time I felt he was really angry with me was when I took him inside. I had to trick him with catnip.

It was a tough decision about the necropsy. I really felt that I owed the neurologist a great deal. I held her in the highest regard. But when I explained to her how much I wanted to bury Toonces outdoors, how much I felt that was the right thing for him and his body, she immediately told me that it was much more important that I do what I felt was emotionally important to honor him than for her to see his brain.

I was very grateful because she freed me of the dilemma with her understanding.

She even kept his body for me while I waited for his coffin to arrive, and she and her staff arranged him perfectly.

I wish she were still practising.

Maybe if the circumstances had been different and the cat had been different, I would have had the necropsy. But in this case it wasn't to figure out why he died, but to give a handful of people the chance to study neuron regrowth after hypoglycemic injury. I am glad that she agreed laying him to rest in the way I felt was most appropriate was more important. He had been through so very very much. We all owed him at least that.

Let me start by saying I'm a vet student. Having been through a good chunk of my pathology classes when my dog passed away, it was definitely something that I thought about. Before he died, I was sure, that what if there was any questions left when he died, we'd necropsy him.

When it actually happend, it was different.

We'd diagnosed a fairly large, intra-abdominal mass on radiograph, he was flat out, and very senior (14 y/o lab).
The analytical part of my brain wanted an answer -- what was the mass? Was that the cause of all his signs? Were there other lesions? I will never know.

The thing was, when it came to it, the much larger, emotional part of my brain didn't want to know. What if we found something that could have been treated? What if the mass could have been resected? (I highly doubt it could have, but what if...) Not only that, but I wasn't sure that I wanted to think about the necropsy having been done, even post mortem. Totally irrational, I know, but part of me just didn't want to think about it. The choice was made, it was 'done'. So what was to be gained? I think if he had died suddenly, or we didn't have any kind of a working diagnosis, I might have gone for it (although I think I would have wanted to have been asked if I wanted it done...)

More recently, when the clinic owner's cat died suddenly, I asked him if he wanted a necropsy. I don't think it was on his mind at the time, and I think the cat's death would otherwise have remained a mystery. With his permission, I preformed the necropsy myself, and submitted the tissues for histo (still waiting for the results), and I'm glad I did. There really were no radiographic abnormalities, and only vague clinical signs, but on PM, we found a few lesions that might have explained what was going on.

So I guess all of this is a long winded way of saying --- it depends. I think it can definitely help if the subject is broached by someone with less of an emotional involvement with the case, so I think when I get out in to practice I'll probably try to offer it (as tactfully as possible) to clients where there are still questions at the end.

My husband and I have agreed to (and have requested) necropsies of several of our cats. We do rescue. So herd health is important. If we do a necropsy, it is based on several things:

1) Were we able to get a dang good idea of *why* the cat died? If the answer to that is no, then yes, necropsy.

2) Were we able to treat the cat, but even with appropriate protocol treatments, and sometimes 'test treatments' (IE: may help, but shouldn't hurt)? Did the cat not respond to appropriate protocol or test treatments, then yes, necropsy.

3) Were we able to treat, successfully, what the initial diagnoses was, then something odd shows up, and we loose the cat, then yes, necropsy.

Several of the necropsies that we have had done have produced some rather intriguing results.

One foster started having patches of hair falling off, with the skin beneath being very rough, thick, and not really flaky, but could be removed with a little scratching. Since we had 4 kittens that were hers, we did a necropsy, which didn't actually produce any useful information, other than the basic things we were worried about didn't show up.

One foster went into lipidosis, but then turned up with pancreatitis. Yeah, lots of fun with her. She seemed to be doing okay, was taking the etube feeding without an issue (didn't even have to keep her neck wrapped, and this was a cat who was devil incarnate personality sometimes). She went into seizures, with what I consider a 'death' body position (head thrown back, spine sharply curved, front and back feet sticking out and stiff) we had her euthanized (kindness to her). Gross necropsy showed an itty bitty pancreatic tumor. One that we wouldn't have been able to keep her alive long enough for it to get big enough to really be seen on ultrasound or x-rays.

One permanent just started acting weird, then went into suspected lipidosis, but liver enzymes bounced up and down, sometimes doubling on appropriate treatments. Ryanne had a med planner so I could keep up with her meds. A liver biopsy showed that her liver was partially skin pink color, the majority of it was white, with a small amount being normal color. There was issues with bile duct involvement, fibrotic tissue in liver, no obvious issues with pancreas at the time. We treated her for everything under the sun. She was getting weekly blood draws, and the irony of this is that she seemed like she was *finally* starting to get over it, or at least stabilize more, when she threw a clot at a blood draw and passed away on the table. Necropsy. Our primary vet actually just sent the various organs intact, so that the pathologists could prepare them as they wanted. We got back around 9 pages of results, involving almost every major organ of the body.

We currently have a permanent, Puj (will be 12 next month, and we got as a companion for Ryanne, when Ryanne was about 9 months old), that went into lipidosis, is tolerating feeding tube well. His liver values bounce around some also. We've been treating him since Nov 1st, when his feeding tube went in. (He'd shred my arms if I tried to assist feed him more than 30cc at a try. Even that was pushing it. So adding in meds given orally? Not likely.) He had a liver and intestinal biopsy after the 'normal' treatments didn't seem to do much (again, liver values screwy). His liver showed some signs of fibrotic tissues, with bile duct involvement, but the color was basically normal (not the white/pink of Ryanne). Nothing unusual with the intestinal biopsy. The idea of loosing him hurts like the dickens, because it's pretty much the same time frame as Ryanne was (starting late one year, running thru spring of next). He's acting more normal, his etube feedings are down to minimal, because I refuse to give up his tube with all the medications that he is getting. I like my skin intact! (Or basically intact!) But if we loose him to all of this, he'll have a necropsy done also.

Some people can't understand why we have necropsies done on some of the 'odd' cases. Well, heck, the oddball/zebra cases are the ones that you can oft learn the most from. I'm just tired of my pets being the oddball/zebra cases.

Della
(off to bed! Gotta be up in oh, sheesh, 4 hours to take some cats to get fixed)

Sheesh, didn't realize it was *that* long of a post. And I just realized that I forgot one of our permanents. Once when she got sick, the clinic did a kidney xray (b/c of s/sx), and only located one kidney. (Needless to say, I told them to look again!) An ultrasound revealed the second kidney. First kidney found was tiny comparable to the normal kidney size. The 'missing' kidney was polycystic (PKD). Domestic shorthairs. Just your off the street mix breed kitties.

Since I had (and still have) her sister, I asked them to go ahead and open her up to see if there was anything else that they (and thus I) could learn.

No real additional information, but Chatain (the sister) does get yearly kidney ultrasounds or xrays done.

Okay, now I really *am* off to bed!

My 14 lb. healthy cat came home & died Fri. night, yes, I asked for a necropsy as this made no sense & I was worried about my other cats. Unfortunately, the necropsy showed nothing, all organs were healthy & no bleeding. My Vet did keep some stomach fluids that we can send out for a tox report, however, there are so many toxins, what do you request? Any suggestions?

What were the kitty's symptoms before it passed? If there were none, is it possible it threw a blood clot?

Did you have a blood panel done? If so, were there any levels that weren't normal?

Were tissue samples taken during the necropsy to be sent to a pathologist?

There were absolutely no symptoms, he was chasing Whinnie over my bed that morning.. If he had thrown a blood clot, wouldn't there have been blood? I will have to double check on tissue samples, but I do know they have stomach fluids..... What's the standard when a Vet does a necropsy? I told them I wanted to know what happened to my healthy boy....... They have been my Vets for over 20 years.....

I don't know if there are specific protocols for a necropsy. Maybe one of the readers that's a vet professional can answer that one.

A blood clot wouldn't necessarily have any external signs of blood. Think about it like a stroke or heart attack. A blood clot forms inside the veins and lodges somewhere that causes a problem with internal organs.

Were there any symptoms within 30 minutes prior to your kitty's passing?

I just recently had a cat pass away somewhat suddenly and decided to have a necropsy done. I spoke with the pathologist at the vet school who would be doing the necropsy and requested a "cosmetic" necropsy - and I was told that an incision would be made in the abdomen similar to a spay surgery and all of the organs would be removed through there. I made it clear that I did not want his body "chopped up" and was concerned that he be kept in as good a condition as possible. The pathologist seemed to understand. When I picked him up, he was absolutely SOAKED in fluid of some sort - it looked as if they had drowned him. I am trying my best at the moment to concentrate on the fact that this was a dead body and no harm was done, but nevertheless I am livid.

Does anyone know why they would have done this?