It seems to me that you are mixing 'vegetarian' and 'vegan' as if they are the same thing. Vegetarians can still consume dairy, eggs, and fish (and any combination thereof). Vegans do not consume *any* animal-based foods.

From our experience as animal owners and rescuers, some dogs love (and thrive on) being vegetarians using eggs and dairy as protein sources. I have a dog right now that if I have a hot dog in one hand and a fruit in the other, he will go for the fruit first! Yeah, he's a wee bit strange.

We've had cats who liked veggies (one would knock you down to get to cucumbers) but I can't see any of them surviving even as vegetarians unless it was heavy fish based.

I used to be a vegetarian, so I know something about this: VEGETARIANS DO NOT EAT FISH!! Sheeesh. Why is this so hard for meat eaters to get through their heads?!

Vegetarians don't eat ANIMALS! When did fish stop being animals? I get this all the friggin' time from meat eaters and from people who like to think of themselves as vegetarians. I mean, even the name "vegetarian" says it all! Vegetarian from vegetables?? Hellooooooooo.

I get sick of people asking me all time when I was a vegetarian; "so, do you eat fish"? I was always baffled. And these were seemingly educated people asking this!!

I had to correct you because you are wrong: Vegetarians don't eat ANY FLESH, BUT they can eat eggs or milk because the animal doesn't "suffer by death" during the process of eating eggs or drinking its milk.

Now Vegans will beg to differ and believe that ANY animal product, whether flesh or its by-products, like eggs or milk, ARE harming the animals and therefore exploiting it.

Vegans don't eat ANY animal products. And some don't even wear animal fur or leather.

I hope that clears up what a vegetarian and vegan are.

Thank you! Another great article I will share!

I have a hard time stomaching that any dog, or worse cat, can live on a soy-based diet (though, I have heard of it).

Sure, it's high in protein, but beyond the reasons listed above, about 90%* of soy crops are Genetically Engineered AND we're still not sure how soy's phytoestrogens affect the human body... let alone pets!

My pup will stick with free-range chicken, wild-caught fish, and eggs from my neighbor!


*http://www.ers.usda.gov/Data/BiotechCrops/

Dear Dr. Khuly:
I read your blog religiously and this is the first time I've seen your mind so firmly nailed shut. And it's also the first time I've thought you were really wrong.

I am well aware that I don't have the same scientific background that you do. But your normally clear writing is pretty murky here. You don't distinguish much between dogs and cats and you don't distinguish at all between vegetarian and vegan. And you don't mention that the quality of what a person is feeding her animal might be more important than any of the above. (Commenter #1 apparently thinks fish are vegetables; Commenter #2 apparently thinks that vegetarian or vegan necessarily = soy-based.)

Yep, I have only anecdotal evidence, because I'm not a scientist. But when I took my 8, 14, 16 and 17 year old LARGE dogs to a new vet, she said, "What's going on? Do you have a fountain of youth under your house?" before I mentioned their diet. Yep, a 17-year-old malamute (she died earlier this year after 9 years as a vegan). I've had dozens of foster dogs on a vegan diet, as well, and none of them failed to thrive in any way.

So, I'm sorry that I can't use scientific evidence to prove you wrong on this one, but I really think you're wrong, at least as to dogs. (I have no personal anecdotal evidence about cats.)

LOL! No, I know fish are not vegetables.

There are many (but not all) vegetarians do not eat meat (as in beef, chicken, pork, turkey...) but do eat fish. That's why I said "any combination thereof". There are several different kinds of vegetarians. (http://www.passionatevegetarian.com/vegetarian_types.htm) I had hoped to avoid making a simple comment into a drawn out lecture that included diagrams. Just as I'm sure the other poster didn't mean veg* meant all soy but, rather, it is a common protein substitute.

Sorry but there are vegetarian societies that ALL agree that one CANNOT eat fish and be a vegetarian. It's an oxymoron.

Flesh belongs to animals (both land and sea creatures). If you consume flesh, you are not a vegetarian. You can still drink milk and eat eggs and be a vegetarian.

You cannot eat eggs or drink milk if you are a vegan though. I hope this once again clarifies it for you and others who are confused.

Thank you for your ray of sanity on what should be a non-issue. Our beloved pets depend on us to take care of them the best we can. If people are truly repelled by the diets they are designed to eat, follow your advise and get a vegan pet - or better yet, a pet rock.

Sorry for being unclear. I did intend to make it obvious that we have to compare apples to apples and that vegan and vegetarian are two separate dietary conditions. One is draconian (i.e., very strict) and the other is far more acceptable and often doable ... Carefully, though.

I do not, however, consider fish-eaters to be vegetarian. Ovo- lacto vegetarianism, to be precise, is what I refer to here-- as in, those who eats eggs and milk but eschew all other veggie proteins. I will amend this post to make it more clear on the vegetarianism and veganism and feline vs. canine. Thanks!

PS: yeah, I have strong feelings about vegan pet foods. So I am kind of wired shut on this one. As always, you're free to respectfully disagree. ;-)

...eschew all other -animal- proteins.

Sorry.

Btw, it'll take me a couple of hours to make my changes. Gotta get back to work. :-)

@ pitbull friend

"(I have no personal anecdotal evidence about cats.)"

I have no experience with dogs and you seem to be doing rescues a great service by taking them in.

That said, I am very much a cat person and please don't ever try a vegan diet on a cat should you rescue any. This is one case where they are simply not biologically able to eat that way.

It is really odd opening cans of grain free food where the protein source in question is, how shall we say, quite obvious, and when I wouldn't eat that myself. But I adopted carnivores and that is the diet they require regardless of how I feel.

I do think there is a large growth potential for responsibly- and humanely-sourced protein for cats(for those of us who don't feed raw).

Dr. Khuly,

I don't agree with prior posts by "well-meaning" pet owners about religious convictions being forced onto their pet companions. I think the ultimate guide is what do these animals (or their cousins) do in the Wild. For instance, a cat's relatives probably touches the lion/cheetah/puma family and thus I have never seen a National Geographic special showing how eager the cats were to eat Savannah grass or tubers found next to a tree on the Serengeti. For me the evidence is clear (as far as cats go) that they are built to eat meat protein, they don't have molars (for grinding grains and carrots), they have large ripping & shearing teeth. Thus nature tells us full out that they are meat eaters.

Dogs, I surmise, are much along the same lines in respect to their ancestors the wolves. Again, NEVER has National Geographic shown us the mushroom-hunting/berry-picking capabilities of these animals. Their occasional need to eat grass, I was under the impression that it helped their stomach to pass some hard substance that doesn't naturally figure in their diets.

While it is okay for humans to have convictions (religiously or just dietary), we should never force these ideas on organisms that A) are not built for it, B) have no choice in the matter and C) it makes us "god" over our domain (a claim no human can make).

Most sincerely,
Chris Norris

P.S. I nabbed your piece on "swimming with dolphins" for my college class (credit fully given). I find your brand of animal care to be both refreshing and to the point. Cheers!

My german shepherd, at over 11 years old, has become allergic to every animal protein I can find to feed him. If I could find ostrich, or goose, maybe he could continue to eat animal protein. Those aren't available, so thank God for Natural Balance Vegetarian food, without which he'd be dead. I haven't tried hydrolized protein food yet; with the $500-$600 I already shell out every month for his meds & food, I can't afford that!

My only experience with pets on vegan/or vegetarian diets involves a client (I'm in professional pet care) with a large dog (I won't name the breed in case she's a fan of your writings). She insisted that the reason her dog was doing "so well" was the vegetarian diet that she had imposed on her. But, I've never seen a dog so thin and emaciated. The woman fed her only vegetarian dry dog food with brewer's yeast sprinkled on it. (Where she obtained vegetarian dog food I'll never know.) That's all the dog was allowed to eat, with the rare exception of a tiny piece of homemade dog biscuit or a baby carrot. I loved that dog so much, but she was just wasting away. The last couple of years were the worst. The poor dog was so starved for REAL food that she would get into absolutely anything that remotely resembled or smelled like food, even going so far as to eat something toxic, which nearly killed her. I have no idea if the woman's vet ever said anything to her. I used to leave hints, but they were apparently ignored.

I understand that people want to to the best for their pets, and if they're on a vegetarian diet, they may feel that's what's best for their pets. But, I wish they would consider not only the pet's health, but also their desires. Offer a dog a carrot in one hand and a piece of lean chicken in the other, and their choice will be obvious. Nature never meant for dogs to be vegetarians. They are omnivores, leaning on the carnivore side. (Much like so many of us.) Just as a human will tend to crave what their body needs, so will a dog or cat crave what they need. (And, I'll just bet it's not veggies.)

Offer a dog some dog food in one hand and a piece of dark chocolate in the other and their choice will be obvious.

You think dogs know what's best for them and yet you say you're in professional pet care. If that's true I feel bad for your clients.

Amirek writes: "Where she obtained vegetarian dog food I'll never know."

If you have a Petco or Petsmart near you, you can find several brands of vegetarian dog food.

One ingredient I recall which can not be replicated or is hard to find in non meat diets is Taruine.

http://dogaware.com/search.html?cx=partner-pub-3346777080832403%3A5399215751&cof=FORID%3A9&ie=UTF-8&q=taurine&siteurl=dogaware.com%2F#806

Thank-you Doctor Khuly, Some of my Kids love thier veggies, some do not. As long as they stay in good health I let them rule.

Both my husband and I are vegetarians (not pescetarians which eat fish) because of our love for animals. We hope to eventually become vegan one day. I have been a veggie for going on 4 years now and my husband has been for just about 1/2 of that. It is a moral issue with us. We just can't get past the industry practices. Anyway, my point is, we would NEVER ask our dog to be a vegetarian! And I cook for my dogs (or dog now) Have ever since the Menu Foods Pet Food Recall which sickened both my boys and eventually killed my Cody. People ask if it's hard to buy them meat and cook it for them but honestly my answer is "no." They are my number 1 concern and their health is my priority.

Amirek- I definitely would have called Animal Control to come out and investigate. Poor pup :(

As I have been looking for other types of protein to mix up Cooper's diet some, is fish something I can give to him on a regular basis or not? I just started giving him whitefish nuggets and salmon skin rolls as treats and he loves them! I had never thought to make him fish before but wanted to ask a vet first.

I didn't feel this was murky at all. While Dr. Khuly is right, there IS a difference between vegan and vegetarian, and a difference between dogs and cats - but the end result is that ANY combination of the above is dangerous.

I know only one dog who has been kept on a vegetarian diet for an extended period of time (most pets who come to me on a veggie diet have owners who I've been able to reason with and provide alternatives) and he is downright vicious. We all laughed when when the Goode Family was on TV with their vegan dog who saw meat everywhere he looked and ate up all the local wildlife at every opportunity - generally while his owners looked on and made comments like "oh look, they're friends!"

Dogs have prey drive for a reason. They chase things that move for a reason. They have large incisors for a reason. They are built to withstand food borne bacteria for a reason. They are capable of digesting bone for a reason.

Owls are nice examples. Totally carnivorous, and yet they can't even digest their prey. Once the meat has been digested, they vomit up pellets that contain the bone, hair and teeth of the animal they just ate. And yet my dogs can digest an entire chicken into powder without so much as passing gas.

We KNOW what these animals are BUILT to eat. Any attempts to alter this can NOT lead to ideal health. The oldest large breed dog I know was an 18 year old Saint Bernard who was fed raw since his entire life - as were generations before him. But I don't run around saying that if you feed properly formulated raw diets your giant breed will live to be 18. Why? I know a 22 year old cat who ate Science Diet (blech) its entire life, a 24 year old yorkie who ate "whatever" the owners ate with NO regard for supplementation or balance and a 17 year old husky who ate Pedigree.

I use George Burns as an example all the time. I know vegetarians who have dropped dead in their 30's and 40's from heart failure (I agree that a loose vegetarian diet is optimal for us humans) and yet here is George Burns who ate bacon sandwiches, drank hard liquor, chased young girls and smoked cigars every day - and lived to be 100 with all faculties intact.

The point is that these animals are meant to eat animal proteins. If you have serious issues with this because of the state of our food system, source out other options like organic free range meat from local farms. Or really, any farm where you can go and get a tour and SEE how the animals are kept. If you have serious issues with causing the death of any animal... then you need a different pet, as Dr. Khuly suggested.

My own pets eat a mixture of just about everything except they do NOT eat grain or soy. We feed a grain free local kibble that uses only free range animals that are hormone and antibiotic free and locally sourced balancing ingredients like kelp, carrots, potatoes, peas, etc. We top it with grain free canned foods (although we use canned rarely simply because it's generally made using a co-packer like Menu Foods), grain free home cooked and sometimes just pure ground raw meat and bone including chicken, beef, bison, elk, venison, turkey, duck, emu and even llama. Yup, llama.

My oldest girl is 5, middle girl is 2, youngest is 1. None have had a single health issue since arriving in my home. We literally have never been to the vet for anything other than a few key vaccinations and regular checkups.

We also do rescue, and all animals who come in are immediately put on the same diet. With this, I've found that many, many animals who come in ill and in generally poor condition make great improvements simply based on diet alone.

I should also mention that I used to be a die hard raw advocate until I had a pet do better on a grain free kibble base. What I've learned in the many years since is that variety is the real key, along with quality ingredients and restriction of quantity (don't care what you feed, if your pet is fat its not healthy). And these quality ingredients must include animal proteins.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hp-BB7R2qo

Just watch the first two minutes. For the record, we more closely resemble the Goode Family than not. We eat organic and try to limit our meat consumption. But I do have a sense of humor and please don't think that by posting this I'm making fun of the environmentally conscious.

Obviously Dr. Khuly wasn't writing about the exceptional dog which might be allergic to the majority of animal proteins. She was writing about the vast majority of dogs and cats, even those which have some food sensitivities or allergies.

And I have to confess my mind is as closed as hers, as seems to be the majority of those commenting.

This is a fine example where we, as owners, have an obligation to put the best interests of our companions above our philosophical preferences. Just because a dog or cat might be able to survive on a meat/fish free diet does not mean that it is good for them.

I'll give you a good example involving human children. Parents have in a number of high-profile cases run into problems when, because one child needed an organ-donor which would be a close match, they tried to create one to order by having another child. However, consenting to surgery to remove a child's organ for donation is not in the child's best interest, and medical ethical issues have resulted in child welfare cases and independent guardians being appointed.

Your moral angst about killing food has no application in the animal world. None. And you have no bloody business imposing it on your non-herbivore pet.

Interesting! I saw a cat who suffered from chronic vomiting and was prescribed a hydrolysed protein diet by its previous veterinarian: MediCal hydrolysed protein (the protein is soy, not chicken). This is the first medical diet I've seen, for cats, that would seem to meet the criteria of vegan. It is, needless to say, supplemented with taurine and other "meat-protein" amino acids essential for cats - now does that disqualify it from being vegan? :-)

Susanbt, whoever you may be? I have "no bloody business" having great healthy happy dogs who the vet always says are in perfect condition? Wow, now I see the error of my ways! (Not!)

I'm sorry to hear the stories about people underfeeding their animals or in other ways not treating them right. But that's not being vegan or vegetarian per se. As I say, my dogs are super healthy. I don't go around telling any of you what to do, because you didn't ask me.

As I say, I don't just have one dog who has done really well on this diet (which is mostly Nature's Recipe kibble supplemented with vegetables and grains). I've had dozens come through my house and do well on it. But since I haven't done a longitudinal double-blind study, I'm not going to make any scientific claims.

I think the reason why some of you so virulently defend feeding your dogs meat has a little something to do with all of the information that's come out in recent years about the horrors of factory farming and the degradation your own eating habits are causing to the planet. Otherwise, why would you be so emotional when I tell you that my dogs get regular vet care and are always assessed to be magnificently healthy (including blood work)? Or that rescue organizations beg me to take dogs because they always do so well at my house? Why else would that make anyone angry and defensive???

Let me begin by saying I am a vegetarian and have been one since my teens. I am also a cat companion and have been kept by cats for over 4 years. I have never even considered imposing my beliefs or my diet on my cats. Cats are carnivores and to be truly healthy and happy they need animal protein. I do not impose my beliefs on my family and friends either. I talk to them about it and cook them delicious meals and try to show them how healthy I am, and happy...but they have a choice and are not obligate carnivores...and no matter how often I show my cats that tofu is great...they would rather have chicken, and that is okay with me. I know I cannot make the world vegetarian no matter how much I would like to, so there will be meat for my cats as long as there is meat for the meat eaters. If I wanted a vegetarian pet..I would have adopted a rabbit or guinea pig. I knew my cats ate meat and I knew that even though I do not agree with the killing of animals for food, there are too many people who do for me to change it totally...so I am fine with my cats eating it too. They are healthy and happy and as another species do not have the choice of diet I do.

...kept by cats for over 40..yes 40..years...not 4 as i stated...i would also like to say that dogs are more omnivores than cats and can do much better without a carnivores diet...and yes, cats must have taurine...and other ingredients found only in meat. I feed a grain free diet and even though i have the occasional cat who adores cantaloupe or peas or rice...they are still carniverous...my cats have lived anywhere from 12 to 20 years.

Chiming in as another vegetarian who cannot fathom feeding non-meat diets to obviously carnivorous pets. My goal is to do right by my animals. They're pretty clearly designed to eat meat, so even if I don't do so myself (and comparing my dentition to my cats', it's pretty clear that I am designed for a different diet), they do.

An individual's anecdotal dogs don't change my opinion. My parents' Newfoundland lived to 14 on Gravy Train and Dog Chow. They had a cat live to 21 on whatever cheap grocery store dry catfood was on sale. It doesn't make me believe that feeding whatever is cheapest is ideal, even though they had very long-lived pets.

Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

I totally agree with you. I believe that dogs too are meant to eat animal protein. Period.

I am an ehtical vegan, as is my boyfriend.

We have 8 cats between us, and I would never DREAM of trying to change their diet. People are poeple. Cats are cats. Our needs are different, and even more importantly, animals cannot consent to "experimental" or "alternative" diets.

Absolutely not.

truth is at www.vegepets.info, which belongs to a vegan vet

I have seen vegetarian dog food in the pet store and was quite mystified by it. I always assumed that dogs need meat to be healthy. It is challenging for humans to be healthy without some meat or dairy products, since we don't absorb iron well from vegetarian sources, and don't get any vitamin B12. It is also more difficult for us to absorb fat-soluble vitamins. I was a vegetarian for 13 years and suffered from iron anemia.

I have a little poodle, and for some reason, he does not even recognize vegetables, fruits and grains as food. If I drop a piece of bread on the floor he sniffs it and then walks away! However, a few days ago, he ate an entire dead mouse while on his morning run (yuck). So far, he has not gotten sick at all.

I am sure some dogs can be vegetarians if the owner is very careful. Although it is worth remembering that grapes, onions, avocados and chocolate are toxic to dogs.

See, there are these things called vitamin pills.

I've been pescetarian my whole life, and there are a great many people who thrive as vegans their whole lives. If you think people can't be healthy as vegetarians then that reflects poorly on your knowledge of the matter.

My family is pescetarian but we've been feeding our dog a meat-based diet for the same reasons everyone has been describing. It's not our place to impose our own ethics and lifestyle on our dog. But then he got cancer, so we changed his diet hoping there's a chance that it might help him get better. He's eating vegan dog food now, which is not as unusual as many of you think. There's another blog on petmd, this very website, that explains how healthy a non-meat diet can be for dogs. I see that many of you have a sort of "common sense-based" opinion on the matter, claiming that dogs are meant to eat meat and that's just the way it is. But I would implore you not to give medical advice unless you're a doctor. My vet approves non-meat diets for dogs. My dog is clearly not being tortured; he's as happy as ever.

I don't believe the vegan diet will cure him. I'm too skeptical for that. If his cancer goes into remission I won't say it's the vegan diet that did it. But he could be dead in a year if we do nothing and the change it diet can't hurt. For those of you saying your ethical vegans but would never feed your dog a vegan diet, that's what I used to think. This isn't me imposing my lifestyle on my dog. This isn't me doing it just for the heck of it, because I think dogs should be vegan. I know this diet isn't ideal, but sometimes we have to make hard decisions. So I'd appreciate it if people had a little more understanding of people who feed their dogs vegan diets.

Sorry, it should be "you're ethical vegans."

Although I am an ethical Vegan it is not the only reason I choose to feed my dogs a vegan diet. The quality of meat that goes into commercial dog food is beyond bad, including sick and dying animals...the ones not fit for human consumption. I could feed meat graded for human consumption...but it is almost as bad filled with hormones and antibiotic. My 10 and 11 year old Basenjis THRIVE on a vegan diet. They have been eating Evolution dog food with whatever we are eating thrown on top for the past 6 years,..they are mistaken for puppies daily.The have never been sick , or had any allergies and their blood work is always perfect. Our vet says keep doing what you are doing they are in excellent health their skin and coats are beautiful. Feed your babies what ever you deem right, but don't judge other peoples choices. By the way the oldest living dog was a vegan border collie named Bramble...look it up! P.S. vegetarians NEVER eat fish ...they are animals.