First let me clarify that I'm well on the way to putting my vet's kids through college, having a penchant for adopting senior pets. In other words, I don't follow the on-line vets.

I just wanted to throw in my perspective on the popularity of on-line vet sites. I work in a non-medical area of the pet care industry and hear constantly from clients and people in general that they can't afford the cost of vet care.

In my opinion, it's not that veterinary costs are necessarily unfair, but that most of us have no insurance to help offset those costs. Many people, especially in this economy, really can't afford traditional vet care. That doesn't mean they're not good pet owners or are looking for advice on the cheap just for the sake of a bargain. Vets who make disparaging remarks about pet owners who rely on inexpensive cyber veterinary advice need to give some thought to those owners' real-life dilemmas.

1) I know Dr. Laci and she is a great person and a great vet
2) I've been using JustAnswer's veterinarians for second opinions, insights and other for quite some time. I am happy having something like that available.

I do take my dogs to vets.
But often one really wants to hear other opinions. Or just ask questions in the middle of the night.

My experience with online veterinary advice is very positive and I would miss it if it wasn't available.

I can't wait to test-drive VetLive

I believe random internet advice and diagnosis is bad news for pets. Not all owners are the same. Some can recognize something is wrong before there are any clinical symptoms while with others, the animal has to be halfway to the other world before help is asked for. Also some owners are more observant than others or have basically more knowledge or experience. A vet must know the owner to judge how reliable the information is that he /she receives. In fact, just as owners need vets, vets need owners especially informed owners who notice ant subtle change in their pet's behaviour.
The fact that internet vets exist does, however, point to a problem in veternary medicine. That is, the possibility of discussing pet problems with vets. Vets are generally already dealing with the next patient before the owner has time to open their mouth to ask questions. I know when the waiting room is full, it is difficult to talk and not deal with the next patient but it has to be.

Why not, helps me. Most af all, give me a better understanding of my Pet Kids as they age. My Pet Doc. agrees with me.

At VetLIVE, we do not prescribe, diagnose, or treat diseases or emergencies. We strive to provide an online 24/7 solution for pet owners when their vet's office is closed and for rural pet owners. First and foremost, we want to provide pet owners with a veterinary expert site that is run and policed by real veterinarians. VetLIVE does this and has a stringent medical competency test to gain entrance for consulting on the site. Pet parents have found it very comforting during our testing phase to be able to chat live with a veterinarian and actually interact (versus the standard question & answer option).

There are endless services we can realistically and responsibly offer pet parents. We will arm these pet parents with the right and accurate information to take to their vet, in hopes that they, will then be smarter consumers, not unlike how a man with automobile knowledge gets better service and charged less when he takes he car in for repair, compared to an uninformed woman. We have helped many pet owners during our beta test: we have actually received telephone calls from the testers in which they have actually cried because they were so grateful for the help we have provided them and their pet family, and offered new ideas that their vet had never suggested. More brains are usually better than one. Please read our testimonials we accumulated during our testing phase. I believe passionately there is a need for someone to provide this service, and to provide it responsibly.

By the way, PetMD just partnered with justanswer to provide a Q&A site. If you go on their "pet" category, non-veterinarians are answering medical questions. Like I said, we want to do it right.

Dr. Laci Schaible, Co-Founder of VetLIVE.com

Thanks Dog Mama for the support!

Patty,
Before Laci and I founded VetLIVE, we had a great telephone conversation with you about how there is a need for veterinarians to do a question and answer site correctly. We are not just another Q&A – part of our mission is charity and we love to blog just like you. I’d like to add to Laci’s comment that we offer more interaction through the submission of pictures, medical documents, and live chat. Although we will never establish a veterinary-client-patient-relationship, our technology will continue to lower the barriers to forming one – and we are still behind the human health care sites. On another note, we are both huge fans of your blog and read it every morning. Thanks for the review – albeit mixed.

Dr. Jed, Co-founder of VetLIVE.com

"...veterinary care [at the very least] seems inaccessible to a great many pet owners..."

That is the perception of many people today. Our vet's office call has gone from $28 to $42 in two years! The price of bladderstone surgeries has gone from $500 in 2004 to $1200 today!
Then there is the latest cash cows: dentals ($500 plus) and the two part Canine Influenza vaccine ($60) though after questioning 27 vet practices in our area -- no one has treated even 1 case.

The economy is poor and many people have to make their money go further than ever. It's wonderful to be able to get a second opinion, a second option or even to be able to get the right questions to ask/discuss with your vet.

With local examples of the vets in this state sueing the SPCA for unfair trade practices when the SPCA opened a low cost spay-neuter clinic (the vets lost) and vets charging $10 to write a prescription if you opt not to buy a medication from them -- the perception is not that the vets are concerned with the animals' welfare but rather that someone may have found a way to deprive the "brick and mortar" vets of a dollar!

No one begrudges anyone of making an honest living but goudging concerned owners has got to stop. And if there are internet vets that can educate the owner, arm them with necessary information/alternatives, I for one say YAY!

I actually believe that online vet advice is a good idea, provided pet parents don't try to use it as an alternative to visiting their own, brick and mortar vet. Frankly, I wish that there was more (affordable) online advice for people.

With the economy being what it is (not good), there are those who can hardly afford to take themselves to the doctor, much less take their pets in for veterinary care.

For small issues, like ear mites, itchy skin, minor allergic reactions, and just good old advice about proper nutrition and exercise, online vet advice is an excellent solution. After all, minor issues hardly warrant stressing the pet out with a visit to the vet. (Sorry, vets, as much as pet parents love you, their pets usually have a different opinion.)

As a professional in the pet care industry (non-veterinary), I have clients constantly asking me for advice about their pets. But, I cannot advise them, because even if I know the answer to their question, I don't want to incur a liability from giving out advice to a pet owner. I usually refer clients to their vet. But, when the questions they ask are almost inconsequential, I feel terrible recommending the vet. Why? Because most vets won't take a phone call from a client to give them advice (understandable, as vets are busy, but what is a pet parent to do?), and it's expensive to take a pet in to the vet for a small issue.

As long as vets are too busy to communicate over small issues with their clients and as long as veterinary procedures continue to rise in cost, there will be a niche for online veterinary advice.

I realize that the LEAST favourite thing vets like to hear is any conversation with a client that starts with "so I went on the internet..."

And I understand their frustration. Too many people self-diagnose (guilty!) and some of the conclusions they reach are downright ridiculous. In trying to explain this to the client, it's hard to not come off sounding like your typical vet with a God complex.

At the same time, I find it equally as frustrating when I discuss alternative treatment options or possible alternative diagnoses and get treated to that same cavalier attitude, regardless of the quality of my information.

Add to this the fact that if you call your vet and explain what's going on (my dog just had liquid diarrhea! What do I do!) you're very likely to get the standard response - sorry, can't do anything over the phone, you need to come in.

Of course, the appropriate response is to monitor the dog closely, remove all food, ensure proper hydration, and give the dog 24 hours to recover from what is probably an upset stomach while watching for signs like vomiting or blood. 90% of the time, the diarrhea will resolve itself (a dose of immodium works great too, but they won't tell you that either).

Rather than drag my already sick-to-his-stomach dog to the vet, I would love to be able to call a veterinarian for a reasonable fee and discuss options, possible causes for concern and get further instruction.

How is this any different than current systems set up for people? For example, here in Ontario, Canada, we have a 24 hour hotline staffed by Nurse Practitioners. If your child has a fever in the middle of the night you can call and get medical advice over the phone. They can tell you if it's serious, proper dosage of pain meds, and potentially save you a trip to the ER - where you're just as likely to CATCH a bug as you are to be handed some tylenol for the fever and sent on your way. The hotline avoids both unnecessary visits to the ER and parents who may ignore critical symptoms.

Provided that the vets who are answering the phones are of a certain quality (I have to question why a vet with real talent is more interested in over the phone consults than dealing with real patients) I see no problem with this, and would encourage people to use their service.

People come to me all the time for advice regarding whether their issue is "vet-worthy" or can be treated OTC. Whenever there is any doubt, my advice is a vet visit - but it would be nice to have a third option to offer people. Instead of saying that I'm not comfortable calling this one and you should drop a few hundred at the ER just in case, I would much rather have them drop $35 and get a professional opinion first.

Great idea, with a potential for abuse and error... but how is that any different from the veterinary profession as a whole?

I don't understand the debate. I often talk to my vet before bringing in a pet.

My only advice would to make a subscription service, rather than per instance payment. Encourage people to form a real relationship.

It can be a low level of subscription, but encourage people to follow up without incurring a new full charge.

Actually I think your site is great. Just trying to be objective and present the veterinary establishment's pov. And for the record, I do NOT subscribe to the Just Answers approach--especially when it comes to non-vet answers. As we've discussed before, I believe there is a place for online QnA. Sorry if this piece came off as less than supportive. Btw, Ive written a letter to the editor of VPN as a rebuttal to the above-mentioned vet's negative comment. Hope that helps convince you of my good intentions.

Thanks for writing a letter to the editor. We were a little less than thrilled with the VPN coverage. We do appreciate how you wrote about both sides in your post. Maybe you would be interested in guest blogging in the future?

I have to agree with the others here and say that to get an EDUCATED OPINION to help a pet owner make a decision is very valuable especially when it's not during regular vet hours. Here in New Jersey, if you run to the emergency vet care hospitals, be prepared to drop no less than $500 for basic a 20 minute care consult. That's a hefty cost in this economy and the last thing an owner wants on top of that is guilt of "well, how much do you care about your pet?". I unfortunately have had that experience. Maybe an educated response can at least give an owner the peace of mind to know if it's necessary to stress the pet and run to the emergency hospital, or to know what signs to look for and wait until they can see their own vet.
Educated advice can save a pet's life if maybe a verbal consult can help an owner determine if they are dealing with a life-and-death situation like bloat. Any knowledgable person would tell that owner "don't wait, get to the vet...NOW!"

The Internet has such potential to be an amazing source for education. It's a shame there's such a black cloud over it. We need to find a way to separate the good information from the bad. And it doesn't need to be free, but it needs to be affordable.

This kind of service could be a real boon to exotics owners, for whom a trip to the vet can mean not only money but a considerable piece of time as well, if the nearest vet who sees your type of animal is some distance away. Even for me and my ferrets, located in a major East Coast city, my vet is a 45-50 minute drive away--I know that ferret people out in rural areas may face a drive of a couple of hours (or more!) to see a vet who might know something about the specific issues ferrets face. Getting some guidance on what's a "wait and see" problem as opposed to a "get in the car now" problem would be really helpful for those people, and I'm sure the owners of other exotics as well.

LynKat brought up a point about trying to talk to your vet:
"The fact that internet vets exist does, however, point to a problem in veternary medicine. That is, the possibility of discussing pet problems with vets. "

I think there's another side to that. Perhaps the vet does take the time to talk to you but has very poor communication skills or is just plain pompous resulting in an inability or unwillingness to adequately answer your questions. I encountered this recently (not sure if it was poor communication or pomposity, though it appeared the latter), and my solution was to tell him to take his suggestions & shove it. Then I took my dog to a different vet for a second opinion before deciding on a course of action. The end result was the same, I took her for the test he had suggested, but I felt comfortable because the second vet had done a stellar job of explaining why that was a rational course of action.

If I'd been aware of VetLIVE.com I may have turned to them for the second opinion because time was ticking and my dog needed help. All I was looking for was a rational explanation of why the test made sense and how it could help resolve the problem - something the first vet was unable or unwilling to provide.

Several comments bring up price as a deterrent/ reason to turn to the internet. In my case, price is a deterrent at some level, but it's more a matter of making sure that the money spent is well-spent. For example, if I shell out the $$ for a second test because the first was inconclusive, how do I know that the second will bring resolution? Like most of us, I have limited resources and want to make sure to use them as effectively as possible. So this ties back to communication/ persuasion - I need the vet to help me understand why spending the money on a test or course of treatment makes sense.

At my previous job I was on-call after hours for 2-3 nights a week and received many calls where, after gathering information and getting an appreciation of the picture, I deemed the animal could be helped with advice alone. Our clinic provided this service entirely free to the public (some owners considerately asked me what they owe and how to pay), but this is not the case with all clinics when they switch to on-call for the night. Besides the satisfaction of helping, there's nothing in it for the veterinarian to make up for getting roused in the middle of the night, and I would rather have it that way than deter people in dire straits from seeking any advice. There were other calls, of course, when owners were told to come down right away and carefully explained what could happen if they didn't.

I don't see anything intrinsically wrong with an Internet veterinary advice service. I do understand the concerns about vets trying to practice medicine without a legitimate veterinarian-client-patient relationship, and this seems a real danger to this kind of service. But there are also plenty of general husbandry and care questions that can be answered without a visit to the vet.

The test is really what kind of advice is given and if it remains within the appropriate limits of the context. I also see huge amounts of gross misinformation presented to pet owners on the Internet, so this is not a purely theoretical risk. One way to assuage the concerns of some vets(which I think are genuine and legitimate, not just base self-interest or income protectionism) is to have a blog or other publically accessible source of information about the service, which gives a sense of the kind of advice being offerred and the indications when in--person veterinary care ought to be sought. VetLive does have this, and my brief perusal of the contents is quite reassuring. Certainly, I don't see any reason to reflexively reject this sort of service.

I've had pets all my life. Vets used to be accessible, on call after hours for emergencies. I've always lived in rural areas and still do. Our people doctors have been accessible the same way. After hours, if my daughter developed a fever and seemed particularly sick to me, I could call her doctor, leave a message and the Doc would call me back within a few minutes to either calm me down or send me off to the ER. In the past, I've been able to do the same with my vet. However, we now have emergency clinics which the vets feel adequately substitute for their after hour availability. Unfortunately, as others have opinned, they are over an hour away, and just walking in means more than a $200.00 bill. Like another person who commented on the Nurse Line, as people we can make a call, explain a few symptoms and find if whether to act now....or wait and see. I welcome the opportunity to seek vet advice by phone or internet from qualified professionals to add to the information I need to make a decision regarding my animal children's immediate health issues.

Sorry this is so long, but I don't usually comment and this post was just too near and dear to me. My husband is not working for 1st time in our 25 years of marriage, and my partime work from home has dried up. We are behind on our mortgage payments and our children get free lunches at school. But my dog was very ill and after $800 in tests and lets try this and lets try that her anal glands were removed. On a Sunday evening all of a sudden she vomited and expelled bloody mucousy black tarry goop for about 10 minutes from her anus. It's the middle of the night, my vet doesn't take calls after hours, providing the emergency clinics number on his answering machine. I call the clinc, they won't even talk on the phone, just give directions to their place of business and stress they require payment in full at the time of service. I have no more money! And even if i could come up with some, the emergency clinc is over an hour away. And I am wondering if my dog is going to die! All I could do was wait and see. Monday morning finally arrived and my vet explained to me that my dog apparently had a GI upset, and was doing just fine.

Again I apologize for length, but at this point, I have bookmarked VetLive.com. And if brick and mortar vets really take the time to analyze why owners are turning to alternatives, its because it seems there are only alternatives available at times.

btw....wouldn't miss your blog, Patty. Thanks.

A few short years ago, there would have been vets and vet technicians alike tearing these people & sites up one side and down the other, with many of the public nodding their heads in agreement.

My how the world has changed along with the economy.

I am still dumbfounded to find clinics raising their prices according to silly articles that "advise to do so". I guess saying goodbye to those 10 clients that can pay $30 or so an office visit is worth the exchange of the last two that will pay $50.

Wake up & smell the coffee; those people are desperately hurting, have reduced or no income, and find themselves making hard & impossible choices.

While Wal-Mart rolls its prices back, we see services rage ahead. Peoples incomes are taking "steps back", since 2006---four years now!

Hurray for those Internet sites! Second opinions, simple questions (just as what was compared to "call a nurse"), and some might even consider getting into honest expert witness business---my how that would shape up poor and fraudulent care!

It is never going back to the "past" and the wise folks are preparing for the change---good for them!

Sadly my vet just retired. And I had to search for him because I recently left the practice I used for 35 years. And out of the frying pan into the fire went to another practice because I began to believe I was being taken for a ride.

Yes, I began to have questions that troubled me. And I found the answers on the internet by looking up state laws and such to find I was being lied to. I had other credibility questions that couldn't be confirmed so readily. Wouldn't it be better to go to an online vet to find the answers because the online vet might be able to shed light in a broader way on the information I was getting. It is not a matter of not trusting or trusting exactly but getting a second opinion. A professional opinion.

And I believe that vets limit possibilities for care too often to drugs. And sometimes drugs have bad reactions. When you are facing a possible reaction to a drug, it would be nice to go to the internet for advice when obviously you can't get your vet on the phone. Discontinue? Get to an emergency vet now? Answers to these questions would be valuable.

Even on such questions as Heartgard. My vet says I need to give the stuff all year long. Really? When it is freezing here much of the year? Need a second opinion for that.

I am a veterinarian and the Director for the Veterinary News Network, Executive Director of the American Society of Veterinary Journalists, and the Veterinary Administrator at www.PetDocsOnCall.com.

And we are proud to have Patty as a VNN member now for many years. In fact Patty won our Rising Star Award two years ago for Internet Publishing!

I’d like to applaud Dr. Jed and Laci Schaible on their venture. Without being “wordy” I will get right to the point. There is more need for advice than ability to give that advice – even on the net.

Now for some background:

We began PetDocsOnCall.com two years ago as an extension of Veterinary News Network to give our 450 members a way to contribute to the early explosion of social media. Many of our group have taken advantage of this opportunity and see it as fun and as “giving back”. Our doctors have answered over 5,000 pet owner questions to date.

We also looked very carefully at the “Diagnose and Treat” issue that a virtual relationship always poses. Please know that VNN consists of hundreds of experienced practitioners, board certified specialists, state veterinary association leadership, national leaders and even members of State Boards of Veterinary Medical Examiners!

And because of our positions, we knew from the beginning we could not afford to violate the VCPR or our colleagues trust.

After long discussions with the American Association of State Board Executives and attorneys who specialize in the veterinary-client-patient-relationship (VCPR), we determined that with proper explanation to the users, and proper answering of our doctors we would not violate this important tenant of the veterinary practice acts in each state. In fact our doctors sign a detailed 15 page document saying they understand this clearly.


Now from a practical standpoint, we try to make sure users know our opinions are to be taken in conjunction with the veterinarian who DOES have the VCRP. I see no problem with second opinions, helpful tips, reassuring advice, or even urgent advice for immediate need to be seen. And after two years and thousands of questions, we have done just that. In fact many of our VNN group now uses PetDocsOnCall as a safe place to send their own clients.

The bottom line is all in WHO is managing and delivering the advice. Without attention and guidance, professionals can easily go over the line – primarily because we are a very caring and giving bunch. But rest assured, there are unqualified and inexperienced folks out there who will hold themselves out as professionals - yet have no training or qualifications to do so. User Be Ware!!

These doctors seem to understand that and I trust they will offer good advice within the boundary of our state board’s of veterinary medicine.

Finally, after 35 years of being a veterinarian, I can say that you can always trust there will be people who despise any colleague who steps out and takes risk, makes changes in the established ways of doing things.

I know Patty has personally experience more than her fair dose of this. So it does not surprise me when I read the criticisms. I’ve heard my share as well. But how else do we evolve as a profession for an evolving need of society or pet owners?

Again; there are more people who need helpful advice (that does not cross the line of diagnosis and treatment) than there are qualified people who can give it. Critics must understand it is not always black and white. Some people just need a little help, and I hope we can, as a profession, can encourage that help to come from degreed, qualified caring veterinarians.

So I encourage these young doctors and their well placed desire to help.

www.MYVNN.com
www.ASVJ.org

My posting may be a redundant iteration of Dr. Jim's comments, but as he as eloquently stated, pet owners are looking for online advice and there is a need for the true "pet experts" (i.e. the veterinarians) to be the ones providing that information and advice.

How often have you run across pet related websites that are providing information that is inaccurate, flat out wrong, or even potentially harmful to pets? FAR TOO OFTEN!!

We started PetDocsOnCall.com in Feb of 2009 in order to combat that very issue. With more than 100 veterinarian signed up to help, PetDocsOnCall was one of the largest sites with veterinarians answering questions. Soon after, AVMA partnered with WebMD to start their site (Sept 09, I believe) and a few other sites have cropped up. I applaud the entry of veterinarians into this realm because the other alternatives have proved to be less than reliable and really shouldn't be providing medical advice or information.

Skeptvet brings up a great point...there is plenty of husbandry type of questions that can be answered. And, to be honest, these types of questions are getting answered by front office staff in veterinary offices all over the country. Wouldn't it be great if this venture into the virtual realm actually INCREASED the level of care our pets received??

I think there is plenty of room online for various sites and I too want to send my best to both Drs. Schaible.

Sometimes what people really need is just specific information, where books and websites are too general, or too technical. How often do we come home from the vet and later that night realize we're confused about something he/she said, or the dosage on the prescription bottle doesn't agree with what we wrote down during the exam or we remember that the cat is on another med we forgot to mention. I had a dog get all squinty after a procedure under anesthesia one time, and was quite scared by what I found on google, but she was better after a few hours. I would gladly have paid for a little peace of mind, so I'm bookmarking this website for future reference.

Given that many people *are* going to get advice online, it makes more sense to direct them to good, responsible and qualified sources of information.

My dog Rock just got out of the hospital here in Wayne, NJ.He had a bout of bloat.

Just before Rock was released I called because I had been reading about the causes and prevention of bloat. What was on many websites was not matching what I found on other websites.

I wanted to know what the facts were.

When I called the hospital ( Animal Emergency & Referral Associates ) they told me my dog would have to have a referal before I could ask questions. Thankfully Rock was there at the time so I was able to explain that I just dropped 5000 at the hospital and my dog is still there recovering.

So the answers are not always available when you call the vet back.
I think a site like this is needed. I think the aspca opened a poison control line for a fee didn't they? It got great reviews.

Great support for this business model when done right. Must say I'm a little surprised...and gratified to see that times are apparently changing in favor of the possibilities new media will eventually offer in both responsible and irresponsible formats. What we do need is open-mindedness and, as fir online pharmacies, oerhaps a certification process. Just a thought. Wondering what you all think about that.

"And why would a great vet worthy of my respect be willing to turn to the Internet as a source of income when real, tangible pets are so plentiful?"

I'll tell ya why: because after 12 years of practice I dream, fantasize, wish longingly for a day when I don't have to step into an exam room with a new client and wonder if this one is going to yell at me about their bill right away, or later, when they refuse to pay their bill. Are they good clients who want to help their pet? Or is it "just a dog" and anything more than a rabies shot is just ludicrous. Will they laugh at me when I mention that their pet needs dental care? Roll their eyes? The thought of hiding behind a keyboard and doing it anonymously sounds down right appealing sometimes. A lot of the times.

Most days it's all I can do to make myself goto work and face these people again. I'm a good vet at an AAHA certified practice. But I'm sooooooooo sick of the abuse I get at the hands of the public. I've been called a crook, accused of padding the bill, doing unnecessary tests, etc. Good God, I'm an honest person who is trying to make a living doing what's best for the pet. You (the public) sit there and tell us how horrible we are for charging for what we do. We have families to support, facilities to take care of, equipment/supplies to buy and staff to pay. Why can't we make a reasonable living doing what we do? We are not rich. Why do you think the verterinary profession has become populated by mostly women? Because the men have to work too hard and make too little to support a family in this day and age. It's great for a second income for a working mom though.

It's wearing. Me. Down.

Luckily during the course of a day there are "gems", wonderful clients, who "get me" and are open about their expectations, desires about their pets care. They make it tolerable.

Hmmm...I digressed. Alot. But some of the other comments decrying the price of veterinary care got me going...for what it's worth: Vet haters: we don't like you either.

@drvivc Well said, and I'm not a vet. I just hate vet haters, too.