I'm a bit confused about this: "There ARE some exceptions, including ... the prevention of injury to other animals (for dogs with a strong predatory drive)." I presume you mean that it may be acceptable to use shock devices to prevent injury to animals other than the ones being trained or contained?

My confusion comes from the my certainty that SOME (not all) predatory or high drive animals will simply not care about the shock, because to them, the behavior (chasing prey) is rewarding enough to continue anyway. Similarly, some dogs will be so fixated on their mission (catch the squirrel) that the part of the brain that would notice they're nearing the fence line just isn't going to be able to kick in. I know a number of GSDs who will run through an invisible fence one way and then refuse to come 'back home' over the line for fear of getting shocked. I've met other dogs for whom any sort of correction when they're about to do something might make them decide otherwise, but once they've started a chase they can be shocked and just yelp and keep at it.

I do think these devices have a place in well trained hands, after other methods have failed despite legitimate efforts, but I also don't think they're very effective even then... JME. I would never use one with either of my dogs... they're both reactive enough as it is that I fear the added anxiety would result in redirected aggression near the fenceline and one heck of a dogfight on my hands.

Could you put up some sort of opaque/visual fencing? 4x8foot plywood panels staked into the ground maybe? With an alley between that and the 'real' containment fence? That might help reduce the motivation to chase enough that some other deterrents and training might be more effective.

My opinion? I would rehome a dog before subjecting them to shock collars of any sort. Period. They don't deserve it and, as you pointed out, there is a huge chance of fall-out behaviorally. Dogs often becomes fearful, which can result in fear-based aggression patterns. I would never ever subject a dog to that nightmare.

Is there an option for a real fence to be put up? Something the chickens can't get over. Maybe even an attachment on the top of the current 4 foot fence? Near us there are folks who put up a 4 foot wooden fence a few years ago. Then last year they got a Tamaskan dog (a Northern breed, related to huskies and the like). The dog can easily jump that. They've put up a wire addition that's a couple feet high and tilted in toward the yard. Hard for a dog to leap over that. It might be an option to keep the suicidal chickens in.

I also agree with a possible opaque fence, just between those animals the dog might chase and the dog. I think that the Look at That game from Control Unleashed as a potential to help a situation like this too. Most of the people I know who use it (myself included!) use it with dog-reactive dogs, but I think it would work just as well with animals the dog wants to chase.

How about setting up a new fence (opaque or chain link) about 3-4 feet in front of the existing fence, making a sort of 'demilitarized zone' or no-man's land (or more apt, a no-animal's land).

Unless there is some factor you've not mentioned that would preclude this, opaque fencing seems like the obvious answer to preventing fence charging. This, of course, won't prevent escaped chickens from being tackled. I'm assuming you've got too much chicken area for covering it (like with mesh netting) to be a viable option?

Nothing is right with the electronic or invisible fences.

We have had several people apply to adopt because their dogs went through the electronic fence and were hit by cars. Many dogs will break through those fences if there is something interesting on the other side (chickens?) -- however, they won't risk the shock to come back.

We had one dog come into rescue whose inhumane, incompetent owner installed his own electronic fence which actually knocked the dog unconcious (far too many owners just wait for the dog to get shocked, rather than teach a visual and sound signal). This dog suffered seizures the rest of her life.

I would work with a fencing company to improve upon your existing fence.

Dr. Khuly:
I feel your pain. I have OVER an acre of land, but cannot fence any of it due to the Brandywine Granite that rests just below the surface. It took dynamite blasting and jack hammers to build sewer lines and other utility necessities here. In addition, fencing an acre is just about cost prohibitive.

I wish I did not have to take my dogs out on leashes. In the case of my female, I can watch her without a leash and she will come when called. My male is a different story. Nevertheless, on a typical bathroom break they both are on leashes.

I am adamantly against shock collars, electric fences and the like. There are some homes in my area that have successfully installed them, despite the granite and other landscape obstacles. I am sure it was extremely expensive for the electric fence owners, as that cable/wire needs to be buried too. Besides expensive which would mean around 25K for us, I just hate the idea of electrocuting a dog, even if it is for a second. I have actually tested shock collars on myself and found them to be extremely uncomfortable and actually downright painful. Granted, I am not covered with fur around my neck, but I know they feel it, or the shock would have no purpose. I do not want to punish my dog for passing over some random imaginary boundary I have created. Yes, dogs get trained and they do get the picture...But some dogs don't and still manage to either circumvent the electric field or withstand the shock long enough to clear the "fence". There are a handful of dogs that still get out and get killed. In addition, it doesn't stop anyone else's dog from entering your yard. Nor does it stop foxes and our newest wild inhabitants, coyotes. When a dog gets out of a fence, some are found, but what dog would return to its owner after being shocked like that?? I want my dog to WANT to be around me, to want to return to me, not worry about getting shocked every time it tests the fence.
My final argument is breed specific. Boston Terriers, French Bulldogs, English Bulldogs, Pugs and the like have those sensitive, googly eyes. I imagine with a strong enough shock they could just pop out. I know a shock collar on my already nervous male Boston Terrier would probably ruin him. He already has a tendency to fight back when he doesn't appreciate a sensation (IE nail cutting), so who's to say he wouldn't associate the shock collar with me and become aggressive? I think when you use mean or painful training tactics with a dog that they reflect that in their temperament. If we think some dogs can be unpredictable at times, just add a shock collar and watch negative or aggressive behavior unfold. It takes time, but in the end you have a dog that has been punished for being a dog.
Walking a dog is so much better for the mental and physical health of the dog. Yes, sometimes it is a pain in these colder climates, but I'd rather do that than shock my dog.

"My final argument is breed specific. Boston Terriers, French Bulldogs, English Bulldogs, Pugs and the like have those sensitive, googly eyes. I imagine with a strong enough shock they could just pop out."

LMFAO... are you freakin kidding me?

Yet another case of someone offering an opinion on something they obviously know NOTHING about.

Every one of my dogs (and several of my rescues) have been trained for reliable off leash work using e-collars. Our collars have over a hundred settings, and each dog has his/her own threshold.

The collars are put on, and the dog is allowed to acclimate to the collar for at least 48 hours. Then the collar is tested, starting at level one.

The strength of the correction is increased one level at a time. As soon as we see a physical reaction (generally an ear twitch, or the dog looking around as if to say "where did that come from?" We then use one level BELOW that level.

At this level, "shock" collars simply produce what feels like a vibration or a tingle. How do I know? Because I have used the collar on myself on numerous occasions to test the equipment before each use.

The point of all this is to simply allow you to "touch" the dog from a distance.

BTW Dr. Khuly - I found it very telling that your "purely positive" trainer went from a year of "force free" training right to an e-collar. God forbid she try out a leash correction first. It's like trying to control your kids using smarties, and when it doesn't work you send them to jail. There is a middle ground that was never even attempted.

To me, that's not a trainer I would use. That's a trainer with only one tool in her toolbox, and by her own admission, not an appropriate tool for a dog engaging in instinctual, self-rewarding behaviours (such as prey drive or fence charging).

Finally, I hear all of this judgmental thinking that seems to begin "Jane used an e-collar in a totally inappropriate fashion and screwed up her dog - therefore I think that e-collars are a dangerous and inhumane tool."

Sorry, that doesn't cut it. Any tool can be dangerous or damaging in the wrong (read: uneducated) hands.

If you have an issue with the misuse of e-collars, then have an issue with people who misuse the tool - not with the tool itself.

For the record, I am against e-fences. Dogs getting shocked trying to come back into the yard after breaking out are a serious issue, but not the worst problem. My biggest caveat is that while invisible fencing may keep your dog in, it doesn't keep wandering animals out. This allows wandering dogs to enter your dog's territory - with no way out for your dog.

I'm sorry, invisible fencing and shock collars are just wrong in my opinion. The money you'd spent on invisible fence and a trainer would be better spent on a high wooden privacy fence. The chickens would be safe and much better off, less stressed and safer all the way around.

What? I mean to say, WHAT? A shock from an e-collar "popping a dogs eyes out"????

If there were ANY risk whatsoever of this, I would be rushing out to purchase a googly eyed dog in order to record myself using my e-collar on him until his eyes popped out just to sue the company for everything they're worth.

This is like science fiction.

I would also like to point out that e-collars and electric fence collars work in very different ways. You could not pay me enough to install and use an invisible fence, for all the reasons pointed out above, but an e-collar in the hands of an experienced and educated trainer is a very valuable and safe training method.

An invisible fence will not stop barrier frustration and boundary running -- just move it back a little, and possibly intensify the frustration and predatory intent. It is the wrong tool for your problem, especially given that your chickens will cross the boundary anyway.

Now, actually TRAINING the dog, not ruling out an electronic collar as a tool of communication at a distance -- that might be an option.

If you think of this tool (or any correction) as a horrible, nasty, painful "last resort" and let the dog's behavior deteriorate and your chickens get killed while you dither around avoiding correcting it -- then you know what? The collar is going to be a horrible nasty painful and UNFAIR last resort "gotcha" to a dog who has been denied any meaningful information about what is NOT ACCEPTABLE while still getting opportunities to practice it.

If you would just find a professional who is free of superstitions and ideological preconditions, someone who is skilled in training, not toolbound, and willing to do what it takes to, you know, train the damned dog and train you to CORRECT the behavior, then maybe we could stop the posturing about "like you, I view myself as a positive-only proponent."

Speak for yourself. I view myself as an "effective, humane, species-appropriate" proponent.

What you are saying here is that you are resisting options for effective communication because the current PC orthodoxy tells you that only bad people correct their dogs.

Thanks from everyone you just called a dog abuser.

I refuse to engage with people who speculate, with apparent lack of irony, on the magical power of an electronic collar to pop the eyes out of a dog, nor with those who claim that a fence collar "knocked a dog unconscious." (Hint: Doesn't matter who installed the fence wire. All it does is send a radio signal to the collar. The little collar unit and its little tiny battery provide all the power.)

So how much would a six foot privacy fence run? Panels obtained from Lowe's and any clients who are handy and would gladly do sweat equity to install your fence in trade off for vet services?
Would that be an option?

As for your foster slobbering the chicken, what about a tie out for her or is that illegal where you live.

I have a 6ft privacy fence which has worked well for my terriers as it blocks the view of all but those blasted squirrels. One terrier can run, leap, cling to the top, and go over my 6 ft fence! This is a 16 lbs rat terrier not a big dog. So she goes outside on a tie out, mind you one that does not reach the perimeter. I do go out and supervise which I think is a good idea for any dog owner with multiples because you don't know when the predatory drift is going to kick in.

You could also try Coyote Rollers which are supposed to effective at keeping fence jumpers in. I simply could not afford them, but I am not a vet ;-)

Good luck!

While I, too, question the possibility of popping a dog's eyes out with a shock collar, as a certified professional dog trainer and behavior consultant, I'm delighted to see the overwhelming majority of responses here in strong opposition to the use of shock training devices. Brava!

Pat Miller, CPDT-KA, CDBC
Training Editor, the Whole Dog Journal
www.peaceablepaws.com

My yellow dog is a chronic fence jumper. We lost one dog to the railroad tracks and had a puppy break toes from a cable tie-out. At that point we went to Tractor Supply Co and bought the wire, posts, and electrical box to run an electric fence inside our regular post fence. The dogs hit that once (twice if they're slow learners) and we've had no problems for 5 years.

The dogs know it's there; they can see it and hear it pulsing. I get to be the hero that comforts them when they do get zapped. It's actually been unplugged since January and the dogs still won't go near it. (Tennis balls within 6" must be rescued by the humans.)

Don't know if the chickens are smart enough to avoid it but the goats would certainly learn.

We got the electrical box in the size and strength for dogs, not horses, cows, elephants, or crackheads.

Also, LMAO re: eyes popping out of googly eyed dogs. snerk, too funny!

Why collars that zap the dogs and may be hard for them to understand? Why not hotwire?

I know of exactly three conditions where e-fences fail.

1) Improper installation.
2) Crappy training by the owner.
3) High-drive or highly behavorially-consistent dogs willing to 'take the hit' to get what they want.

I have NEVER seen a properly e-fence-trained dog develp ANY issue around a properly-installed fence the fence. Installing the fence is very straight-forward, and if an individule lacks teh basic skills needed, there are plenty of contractors more than happy to help. The training is simple and basic - If you can walk a dog on a leash, you can accomplish the training, and it is neither cruel or hurtful, done right.

High-drive dogs, well, with them, you're just going to have to use something different than just a simple e-fence.



Now, all that said, fencing is NOT your real problem here. Your real problem is prey drive and frustrated prey drive. And that's an entirely different can-o-worms. NO fence, short of Mordor's Wall o' Doom is going to deal with that, unless you directly act on the root problem. Instead, you need to redirect the drive. You need to catch her In. The. Moment. of the objectionable behavior, and redirect it. And you're going to need to do it a LOT. Consistently. All the bloody time - At least untl after you get past the 'extinction burst' and have reprogrammed her prey drive into something non-objectionable.

I'd try getting her a job - Something that will exercise her mind and body both. Obedience and advanced obedience is a really good possiblity. Maybe you'd like to learn how to do agility or freestyle - you know, the 'doggy dance' stuff - with her? Then start with obedience. REAL obedience - not just a few simple commands. I mean walking *properly* on-lead, the full array of obedience commands both close-distance and far, target training, and all the rest.

Even if she's only going to be a temporary foster, Pinkie will be better off for proper training. She'll be happier, more adoptable, and have a FAR higher likelihood of success in her new life. And if she's going to stay with you forever, well, you'll like having a properly obedient, happy dog around a LOT more than a chicken-chaser!

Hotwire! Forgot about that stuff, LOVE IT! Unlike invisible fences and shock collars in the hands of the unqualified, scatmats and hotwire work on the same principle: See this thing here? Touch it, get shocked. The end. That's simple enough learning that just about everyone gets it after a try or two. I've seen a hotwire run on the top and bottom of a privacy fence work wonders for jumping and digging escape artists. It doesn't reduce the dog's motivation to perform the behavior at all though, which could result in frustration, etc.

Another note on the invisible fencing. Some dogs may not be smart enough to learn (though my money would be on the humans not being good enough at the training) but others are too smart. One dog I know would regularly and reliable go to the fence line until she heard the beeping start, and then lay down there until the battery died and the collar no longer beeped at her. Then she'd go for a walk.

I agree with Geckospot. We have used hotwires to prevent our bigger foster dogs from jumping a fence. I can honestly say that the stupid humans (me and my husband) have been shocked by it more often than dogs Fortunately, the (smarter than us) dogs remember and respect it!). It's unpleasant, but not painful - again I know from experience. Once our new foster dog adapts, we turn it off until the next time we get a foster dog we need it for. To keep the chickens in, would a fence similar to what they use for cat fencing work? It's like a slanted in barrier that goes on top of the existing fence.
Unfortunately, these options won't stop your dog from running the fence. Good luck - I know you are trying to do the right thing.

I appreciate Welso's comment (#3) about installing an additional fence (opaque or chain link) 3-4 feet in front of the current fence. This sounds like a fair and reasonable suggestion in light of the circumstances.

There has been so much discussion the last several years about "positive reinforcement" training, and while I believe it has it's place, I also have the voice of experience to know that this doesn't work successfully with all dogs. Just like children have their own personalities and need various degrees of discipline to steer them in the right direction, dogs are no different and if you disagree with me, then watch how they operate in the wild by watching a Nat Geo special or watch Cesar Milan and see how he trains by "owning" his role as pack leader.

I don't think an invisible fence is cruel if used and trained with properly, however I would run amiss to think that the majority of pet owners are willing to have the patience and the time to properly train their pet on an invisible fence (if we're being honest here). With that being said, I would resort to the invisible fence as a last resort. I still prefer the additional fencing idea as posted in several responses above.

I agree that used improperly, an invisible fence/e-collar is cruel. However, used correctly, with proper training, they are very effective and not cruel at all. When we moved to our new house 3 years ago, it did not have a fence, and it was far too lovely a setting to fence in (or out!). However, we had 2 German Shepherds (aged 4 and 20 mos.), so we had a dilemma. Years ago my mother had gotten me an invisible fence at another house to keep my dog at the time out of the landscape beds she had so carefully planned and installed. It had worked, so I told my husband about it. He was skeptical.
The invisible fence company I contacted here locally was very professional. The price of the fence included 2-4 weeks of training the dogs (and us!). When done gradually, as they did, the dogs learned quickly. Frankly, I'm not sure they ever got shocked - they simply didn't like the high pitch sound that is emitted as a warning prior to a shock. The collars and fence work. My dogs do not break the fence, even with the temptation of squirrels and rabbits running up and down the fence line. Nor are they afraid. They simply know their limits.
Last Fall we added a Miniature Dachshund to our menagerie. When I called the Dachshund rescue and applied for a dog, I was told it was not possible to train a Dachshund to an invisible fence, so we were rejected for adoption. That got my Irish up - and my inborn stubborness. I found a reputable breeder and added another dog to our pack. When he was about 8d-9 months old, we started training him to the collar, following the same training methods as the invisible fence company. Now a Dachshund is not a German Shepherd (that train easily and willingly). Regardless, our little guy was trained within a month. He completely honors the fence. (I will note, however. We do not let him out by himself - one of the Shepherds or one of us is always with him. While the invisible fence keeps him in, it does not keep other dogs, coyotes or foxes out. He is too small to take care of himself. His big sisters will always take care of him when they are out together. We've never encountered this situation, but we do not want to!)
So for 3 years, it's been a great success for us and our situation. I'd say it is situational, and it does require patience and oversight. We like it because it preserves our natural setting, and our dogs can run and play. Anyone considering an invisible fence needs to carefully review their situation and decide if it works for them. We're very pleased with it. But it might not always work in every situation.

Interesting experience w/Patusie dachshund. The other extreme is my friend's dachshund, now age 15+. When she was a young dog, her owners decided to install an underground fence since that was what their flossy subdivision required. The dogs (the other was a pug) used doggie doors from the house to the garage and out to the backyard. After the initial "training" with the underground fence, the dachshund refuses to go out into the backyard. Instead, she would do her business in the garage...it was out of the house, but safer than the backyard.

Thankfully, her owner realized the association so that when they moved to a new subdivision, he didn't install another underground fence. Instead, he simply went outside with the dog.

Well, I'm the poster child for bad use of invisible fencing.

I have 15 acres with cows around so I wanted the dogs to stay in. I got invisible fencing and trained the dogs to it properly. Then I got slack and didn't keep it on reliably and the dogs learned to run through it(chasing after rabbits). If they go fast enough they're through before it shocks them. And they come back in the same way-zoom! So I've installed a lower wire to slow them down so the shock will have time to happen. It's a crappy stop-gap method to keep them in but it's what I've got right now. If I was doing it again I'd just run a hot wire-cheaper and probably more effective.

Dr. K - I'm with the management idea - try Coyote Rollers so your hens don't get out - or creating a second fenceline for your poochies.

http://www.caninekingdom.com/vmchk/doors-gates/dog-safety-fence.html

And here's article using clicker training for boundaries. http://www.clickertraining.com/node/2409

Two words - chicken tractor. We have chickens and my yorkies actually killed two of them. But now they all live in harmony after they got used to each other.

Eh, I can't be so self-righteous on this one. I had an electric wire running the perimeter of the bottom of my stockade fence, and I'm glad I did it. My two dogs, whom I acquired as poorly socialized, untrained adults, were digging out of the yard on a daily basis. It was all fun and games to them - I'd find them in a field a few neighborhoods over, and you could tell they were having the time of their life exploring and running large. What's not OK is both dogs, being very poorly socialized, default to aggression when they seen any other dog, and both have very strong predatory impulses. At 50 and 85 lbs., they can be downright dangerous, and it was only a matter of time before they killed someone else's pet or got shot while attempting to do so.

When it became obvious that no amount of blockading, fortifying, or rigging the fence to make escape more difficult would work, we installed a hot wire...and watched from inside the house as both dogs proceeded to dig, got shocked, and backed away. No escapes since, and it's been almost two years. Half the time the wire isn't even turned on, and I actually took it down a few months ago and never got around to replacing it. They still steer clear of the fence perimeter but fully enjoy the rest of our decently large backyard.

The truth is, I didn't really care what it did to their psyche, just that it worked. Otherwise I was bound to come home to missing or dead dogs. They have no problem exiting the yard with me on leashes - perhaps because the gate area was never wired? And like I said, they love their yard - you just can't let their tennis ball land w/in six inches of the fence, or they won't retrieve it!

As for training, I had neither the time, money, or patience to do so, and re-homing these dogs was not an option. Trust me, with the one, what with her bladder stones and hip dysplasia and mast cell cancer and severe storm anxiety...you get the picture. She's not exactly an ideal candidate.

I feel differently about shock collars b/c I've seen so many dogs come into the clinic with severe burns and ulcerations from improper use. I don't think I could ever recommend that to a client in good conscience.

anna

I moved into a house with chain-link between me and the neighbors, and my dogs and theirs were constantly barking at each other. I mounted wood panels onto the existing 6' high chain-link fence with hardware that they sell at Home Depot. There are semicircular brackets that fit around the metal fence posts and can be bolted into the wood panels.

To make the panels I bought 6' dog-ear fencing and nailed them to horizontal 2x4s. Super simple, and very effective. The visual barrier made a huge difference, it stopped the barking and fence-fighting. Also, my dog who can climb over chain-link could not climb over the dog-ear panels.

You have seem 'burns and ulcerations" from improperly fitted invisible fence collars or actual electronic dog training collars?

Hi,

Have you looked into Best Friend Fence? www.bestfriendfence.com
I had a client who was renting and wanted to keep their pit mix in their yard and keep the deer out as well. Their landlord ok'd it and it worked great. He was a big strong boy so that is something you might think about.

I too would worry about behavioral fallout with an e-collar.

Good luck...

Nannette


Nannette Morgan, BA, CPDT-KA
Certified Professional Dog Trainer
Pawsitive Pals Dog Training

This has been my personal view for a while, thanks for speaking up!

donnadw - Mostly the collars used to inhibit barking, although I have seen one each of the invisible-fence type and training collars.

The bark collars are the worst - they get left on 24-7 and while the owner is away from home, and finally a rotten smell alerts the owner to the fact that the collar has managed to create festering, oozing wounds on the underside of the neck. I've seen probably a dozen of those in the last two years.

With the fence and training collars, both times they were improperly fitted and, although the owners didn't explicitly admit to it, likely improperly used.

In all cases the wounds could have been avoided with proper usage. But I still shy away from recommending them to any but the most judicious owners.

Shock collars put an incredible amount of stress on a dog. I know there are plently of people who try it on themselves and say, it wasn't bad.. I hardly felt it. Well if you give me the control and you wear the shock collar and you have no idea when the shock is going to come I bet by the end of the day your stress level will be on over drive. Even with the ones that give sound signals as a warning.. they are cruel.. They don't keep other critters out.

Remote training collars are probably the most misunderstood tool in the dog training world. Unfortunately most *professional* trainers/behaviorists don't even understand the wide variety of ways they can be used. Most simply think that you *shock* the dog when he/she is *bad* This reflects a sad, sad lack of education about this tool.

It is only a tool. How it is used is determined by the human. And that is determined by how much they want to explore ideas and possibilities that are outside of their current awareness.

Sadly, selling the "Inhumane & Cruel" propaganda is SO easy with this tool. How difficult is it to paint a picture of electricity being scary and bad? We have all been conditioned to understand that concept since we were very small children. Most of us have very little actual knowledge of the whats and how electricity works.

However when varying amperage and voltage electricity can be created that is completely safe and not physically harmful to the recipient. Fortunately this understanding has been explored and utilized in the medical community for some time and e-stim is actually used as a way to manage and block pain and help regenerate damaged tissue.

This same safe technology can be applied in in the dog training arena to help dogs learn through a variety of associations with the sensation.
yes, of course the sensation can be uncomfortable and or painful to the dog IF the person responsible for the training is using the equipment in that fashion and turning the stimulation levels to what would be perceived as *high* or *ouch* by the dog.

But the sensation of a remote collar can also be adjusted so that it is not uncomfortable or painful to the dog. And at these levels it can be used to interrupt the dogs behavior/thought process/focus and then used to redirect the dog to more appropriate behaviors that are then rewarded. Use such as described allows the *trainer* to play a game of hot and cold with the dog and learning is accelerated because yes and no are marked with great precision.

If you are at all curious you can check out a different perspective with this short clip titled: Can Shock Collars be Positive Reinforcement Training?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05EDolAErRk

all the best,
Robin

Wow Robin, what a crock of, well, you know what, your post was. Are you kidding me? We don't understand how electricity works so therefore we don't understand the collars? What pro shock collar propaganda have you been reading lately? Dog does something you don't like, you push a button that causes an electrostatic shock. It hurts the dog and you hope they stop doing what you want them to stop doing. It usually ends up stressing out dogs, shutting some of them down, and certainly stopping them from offering new behaviors that you might want.

Regarding this from another poster: "The point of all this is to simply allow you to "touch" the dog from a distance."

This is so typical of shock collar propaganda. If you're just "touching them from a distance" and the purpose is indeed NOT to hurt the dog in order to get them to stop whatever you want them to stop doing, then why don't the collars just simply have a vibrating element? Those collars are out there (owners of deaf dogs sometimes use them). So why is there an added element of SHOCKING the dog? That's right, because it's supposed to hurt. Hurt = did something bad = stop doing it. It's simply inhumane. I hope that someday this country wakes up and realizes it's NOT ok to hurt our animals. Until then I won't go anywhere near a trainer who uses such inhumane methods and I keep my dog FAR away from any who I know is trained using forceful methods as I find those dogs to often be wholly unpredictable, especially with other dogs.

Am I the only one (and based on the comments perhaps I am) who read the beginning of this and thought that this dog needs more exercise? Dr. K, is it possible for someone trustworthy to take the dog on a couple long walks while you're at work?

Maybe then, she'd be calmer or too tired to mess with the chickens much.

Hello Crysania,

I'm sorry you feel my post is propaganda. I'm not trying to convince anyone that remote collars must be their tool of choice, only trying to educate on how it can be used other than pain.

I certainly understand that if you have not seen that application it is hard to conceptualize.

Remote collars of the very early years were used for punishment only and unfortunately that stigma has stuck with the tool However, the technology has changed and advanced significantly over the last 50 years, just as the technology of all of our electrical products has.

I fully admit I am trying to battle against propaganda that the tool is inhumane and against the idea of e-collar bans. I am passionate about that mission.

I believe educated consumers can make and should make choices about what is best for them and their dog. I believe when people explore ideas and think for themselves they are capable of coming to conclusions that best suit their lifestyle. I believe in choice. For the record I also use other markers, treats, toys, leashes, long lines, and a whole host of other tools in my training of dogs.

In answer to your question, there are some collars on the market that utilize vibration and some that have variable levels of vibration. And the vibration feature can be very valuable in a number of ways. I have also seen a number of dogs who are far more startled by the vibration than they are by the stimulation. It depends on the dog.

There is a need for variance in the levels of stimulation for the same reason there is a need for levels of variation in the TENs units. Everyone's physical sensitivity is different and it changes depending on environmental circumstance.


I've explained variance in levels through another example outlined here:

http://www.truthaboutshockcollars.com/27/what-level-of-stimulation-is-needed-when-training-a-dog-with-a-electronic-collar/

The outline of training that you presented in the use of electronic equipment is quite primitive and sadly...it is the common perception. There is a great deal more finesse than what you describe and the training can be done without significant stress to the dog. I understand that if you have not had first hand experience working with someone talented in the use of remote collars, it would limit your perception.

Respectfully,
Robin

I have a small rescue and the pack changes. We have over an acre with a 9 ft board on board fence which deters most dogs from jumping.

We have found that an invisable fence installed just along the fence line keeps our crew from digging under or jumping over the fence by keeping them from getting to the fence by about a foot.

Does the collar hurt them? Hold on to a collar and approach an invisable fence line...It begins to emit a beeping sound. As you come closer to the fence the beeping sound is louder and and increasing. The Collar gives the dog several feet of warning before it emits a static shock. --and the owner can control the amount of shock the collar emits! I would never put a collar on my dogs that I could not handle myself! The whole process is a training exercise of positive reinforcement. The beeping reminds the dog when they are getting out of bounds. In my case if the dog gets out of the yard they could be hit by a car! Much better to get a little zap. The are not going to try to climb the fence or dig after the zap.

If that sounds cruel, so is mental torture of brushing their teeth but I am not going to stop that either. ;)

"Finesse" or not. It STILL delivers a shock to the dog. Which is painful and IS inhumane. Tell me Robin, would you put it on a child? Train them using it? I mean, if it's so humane, let's put it on our children and use it.

And I see from your website that yes, you are nothing but pro-shock collar propaganda. I'm not surprised considering you say the same bunch of nonsense that other pro-shock collar trainers say.

Robin is right about the varying levels of "shock". They don't have to be of the Hollywood variety complete with smoke & convulsions nor even of the winter static "snap" from walking on carpet. Electronics can easily be calibrated to deliver shocks from barely noticeable on up.

In a long life of messing with electronics I've been shocked many times. The only real pain was caused by gouging my hand while yanking it out of a TV set when I touched the wrong piece of gear. We can assume dogs aren't into DIY TV repair, right?

Near as I can tell, the problem with e-collars is the all too common human ability to blithely misapply any technique while trumpeting their expertise in it.

FYI, hot wires work poorly or not at all on chickens. I have over 80 young chickens and over 20 laying hens who move in and out of the goats' electrically-fence pasture with zero impediment.

Hot wires on the tops of fences absolutely not at all; the chicken is, by definition, not "grounded."

Since part of the problem here is chooks flying over the fence and into the dogs' area, the hot wire would not help here.

I use electro-net to contain both poultry and hoofstock in rotating pasture, and it works well -- with poultry that can't fly over it. (i.e. meat birds, ducks, and wing-clipped turkeys)

Hot wires are a LOT harsher than electronic fence collars or e-collars for the dog. They can be an appropriate adjunct for dog containment in some situations, but this does not sound like one of them.

I've worked with plenty of dogs who have phobias and aversions due to ill-advised use of "invisible fences," but the majority of dogs in the majority of circumstances do okay with them, especially if properly conditioned and trained.

*Every dog* that hits a moderately hot fence wire runs yelping, and most will take several weeks to be willing to come within fifty feet of the general area again. I've held fence collars to my wrist, and I've walked into electric fences in the dark. There is NO comparison.

Also, Dr. Khuly has a young child. These do not mix with hot wires.

I'm glad to see that Ms. Miller has swooped in to imperiously click at those who parrot her bias, make a show of ignoring those who challenge it (because that will inevitably lead to extinction, natch) and offer not one iota of advice or insight on, you know, training the dog, or finding training for the dog, or even that training the dog might be a good plan. Brava indeed.

wow, crysania,

Fascinating leap you made there....I've used e-stim on myself quite a lot...helped me heal tremendous damage to my legs that were injured in an auto accident.

Have I used a *shock collar* to train children? Uh, no. I didn't spay mine, crate them or keep them on a leash either. I did use a fair balance between reward and consequence to raise two pretty well behaved kids though.

When you decide to enter into a logical discussion, you know where to find me.

Have a good day,
Robin

The Judge Rotenberg Center in Massachusetts uses backpacks to deliver electric shock as punishment to children with mental disabilities. Only disability rights organizations and Mother Jones call it torture. If it's okay for people, it's okay for pets, isn't it?