A few things. A dog that got loose off of leash and killed a small cat, well, death row seems a bit extreme, but I understand it. The only way the authorities find out about it is if the cat in question was someone's little fluffy, and little fluffy's parents have rights too. As inhumane as it sounds, if a dog in our neighborhood happens to kill a stray, I might buy him a raw steak for his troubles. In addition, a dog that has this type of drive may go after other small victims like children. Ok, so maybe that's taking it to the extreme. Wanna verify this? Neither do I.

Now the dog on the leash part, I agree with three strikes and you're out. I mean, if you have a dog that, on leash, supposedly with their "alpha" controlling them, is going to strike and kill three dogs, well, that dog has a problem. It's problem may be the owner, but it's a problem. Dogs are pack animals first, and they shouldn't be attacking each other. Attacking three is a pretty accurate indicator of a dangerously unstable dog.

Finally, the idea that this type of "instinct" is more difficult to address is ludicrous and I am surprised you stated it. Again, attacking other dogs while on leash is NOT an instinct, it's a behavior issue. As far as training out off leash, peeing in the house, sniffing and wondering on leash rather than doing the job at hand (healing), eating shoes, and other undesirable traits are every bit as instinctive as an attack drive, and we EASILY address those with training all the time. Of course, there are some pedigrees that have such drive that it's uncontrollable, like a greyhound chasing a bunny, but if we have a dog where the owner cannot control such behaviors, the dog is still a danger to society. Ted Bundy probably had an instinctive drive to kill and I doubt if you would share compassion with him. I see no consolation for the dog in question; being instinctive is not a defense, nor should there be.

Nope, this is a first, Doc. I think I 100% disagree with you on all counts. A dog that's going to attack is a danger to society. The danger is probably owner and training related, but that is little consolation to the victims, which is why the laws also should punish the owners as well.

I just read my post. I shouldn't be writing before the first cup of coffee is consumed. Horrible..

Predatory behavior is normal.

So is regular intraspecific aggression. Dog fights are NOT a pathology.

In fact, a dog who attacks another dog in a serious predatory manner is arguably more pathological than one who gets into a fight.

Now, a predatory or habitual fighting dog may be socially unacceptable in most contexts, he may need training, he may require careful supervision -- but he does not need "treatment" for a pathology. (In most cases -- there certainly are exceptions.)

With appropriate training, a highly predatory dog can be focused on the prey objects we find acceptable. Dogs were not domesticated "to obviate their basic instinct to kill." They were domesticated, and have remained useful for millennia because of that instinct, which in many populations has been honed and intensified for our purposes.

Despite EAB's groundless speculation, shrieking What if it was a child!!! over the corpse of a rat, or a chicken, or yes, even a cat or a Chihuahua is nothing more than hysteria indulged by people who are profoundly ignorant about the animal mind.

This dog:

From Pip

From Pip

From Pip

There was no speculation as I routinely read about a dog killing or severely injuring children and adults. Amazingly, it's ALWAYS a neglected dog. Wow, attacking dog being unbalanced and has a bit of rage..who knew? Seriously, well balanced dogs don't attack other dogs..PERIOD. Cats and squirrels? Sure, I'll buy that, if that's what their breed is to do...but that's not what we're dealing with primarily. If they are NOT bred to kill, then if they are well balanced, they won't.

Dogs do not have a basic instinct to kill except to feed. I would go as far as some breeds don't even have a clue how to kill, instead expecting the alpha to address the task of getting food.

Retrievers are bred specifically NOT to bite down on the prey. If a proper retriever catches a live bunny or squirrel, that animal will be alive when carried by the dog. If the animal is already dead, the retriever will retrieve the animal and bring it back without biting down.

A Border Collie or other herding breed may appear to be attacking a cat, but in reality, all they are doing is "herding" the cat. This was demonstrated in my back yard a few months ago. (Doc, don't tell me this is improper, a girl has to get her exercise..haha) There was a tomcat in our back yard and I, knowing Tina's herding instinct, turned her loose for a bit of exercise. Frankly, when I do this, the stray cat will run the back yard and climb the wood fence or many trees I have. This time was different. Tina ran full force after the stray tomcat. The cat never moved, instead choosing to sit there and stare down the closing dog. Tina got within 10 feet, stopped, and sat down. Why? because the cat was not moving, the cat had been properly herded. If what you say is true about the predatory instinct of dogs, that tomcat should be a memory.

Oh, by the way, the tomcat stayed put for a few seconds, then dashed to the side, and the chase was on. Again, Tina never attacks, but just attempts redirection IE herding.

One more thing. A dog that is so unbalanced that it would attack another dog will just as easily attach a child as in both cases we are dealing with a behavior that is not consistent with a well balanced, content dog.

One of my dogs is very aggressive. She is a rescue so I am not sure if she comes from a line of dogs that may be aggressive. I would think that a breeder may be able to increase aggressiveness through selective breeding. (That is more of a guess).
This dog loves to fight and she will feign playful bows to attract another dog closer so she can attack. Her body language seems to be a bit off.
She will also hide in bushes and stand stock still until what she would consider prey comes along.
When I first got her a little dog jumped out from under a car at her. In about 10 seconds that dog was dead (according to the vet she severed an artery and the dog bled out). She was on a leash and the other dog was not. It does not take much for a bigger dog to kill another smaller animal.

I have taken her to training and have worked with her. We have a good relationship for the most part. She listens, comes when called, and is not aggressive to people, very affectionate...but when she sees another animal she acts like a wild horse on the leash. She shakes her head, bucks, gets wild eyed and she is lost in her head. At that point I can’t seem to reach her no matter what.
I am now onto another training course called feisty fidos and she is in another room with other dogs. The course promises positive motivation and has scads of great reviews. However when my dog acts up the trainer will yell NO and force her to sit. Which is confusing because the course booklet enforces only reward based training.
Needless to say we are not making much progress in staying sane with other stranger dogs.

Me and my dog are in this for life and she is not going anywhere. Right now I am just very careful with her and she is always watched. I really would like to get to the point of having some control over her when she sees another dog though.

There is no relationship between intraspecific aggression and human-directed aggression.

Aggression towards other animals is NOT a predictor of aggression towards humans. And vice-versa.

As for "this breed only 'herds' other animals" -- yeah, right. Keep a shovel handy for the day when the tomcat doesn't stand off your border collie, because when your dog finally catches it and kills it in her excitement, by your account, the authorities should be coming to kill your vicious dog.

I guess Pip "herds" groundhogs right good. Funny they don't end up in the pen at the end, the way the goats and poultry and sheep do.

It is this kind of alarmist speculation masquerading as dog expertise that has panicky grandmas calling me --

"The dog killed a rat in the garage! Grabbed it and shook and killed it! I keep telling my daughter that he has tasted blood and will now eat my grandbaby, but she won't listen!"

H. Houlahan, I have worked with dogs for going on 30 years so you might want to get off this idea that your opinion, is more informed than mine. That is incredibly doubtful. The blog entry was primarily dealing with attacks of other DOGS and yes, the odd cat, so let's keep it right there. Killing mice and rats? Really, where did that come from?

So, as far as attacking DOGS goes, there is no instinctive behavior in a WELL ADJUSTED dog that would have it attack another dog. Do dogs get into scuffles at the dog park, misunderstandings and such? Yeah, but in most cases I have observed, one of the dogs is showing instability to start.

Can a dog be BRED and TRAINED to attack another dog? Yes, but then, they are also a danger to society at that point because to change a dogs basic instinct by breeding and behavior modification(to include beatings, underfeeding, soliciting fights for food, etc). When this is done, then you turn a well mannered dog into a canine attacker and that's messing with the fundamental instinct of a domesticated dog If you are maintaining that, for whatever reason, a dog that would hunt down and kill another dog could be trusted around children, well, I will respectfully disagree. If I saw a dog kill another dog unprovoked, I sure wouldn't trust it around anything with a pulse; dogs, cats, humans, or anything else. Again, dog park scuffles do happen, but rarely result in any injury and, as previously stated, most cases one of the dogs is exibiting some sort of undesirable behavior to start, usually dominance by aggression over an object IE a ball or toy, or another dog.

Dr K, as far as the idea that a dog could get a small dog confused with a rodent and attack said dog, I disagree (respectfully, of course). Rodents and small dogs don't even come close to smelling the same. The dog would never trust only it's site to identify anything.

H, you commented on my dog attacking a cat to death. That is a laugh. Not only has her breeding (she's the result of two mutts having a tender moment) resulted in an extremely well behaved, instinctively kind and submissive dog, but she has also been trained within an inch of her life. Our dog does NOTHING without being told to do so. About the only thing she is authorized to do without command is breath. She will not pay a rodent, squirrel, or cat any attention, on or off leash, unless being given permission to do so. Once given the command, she can run full force wide open after a squirrel, cat, or other rodent in an effort to "herd" not "kill" and in full on herding mode, ONE command brings her back, seated at my feet.

So even if you would allow every other dog in the world to attack, don't include ours. She's worked way too hard for such a lack of consideration for her discipline.

When I took my two Cockers and Tibetan Spaniel to the dog park, a Foxhound grabbed my Tibbie by the head and ran around with it. Fortunately the dog did not shake the Tibbie so there was no real damage after the owner got the dog to release it. But the whole time the Foxhound was carrying the Tibbie, the Tibbie dangled from the mouth and was completely relaxed as though dead. The Tibbie was sore for days and had a small puncture at the throat that I only discovered days later. The Tibbie suffers from fear specific to this dog. Once we went to the dog park and she discovered that her friends were there she stopped being afraid. But if the Foxhound enters the park she begins a howling and I know to leave. I have talked to the owner, shared my research and asked her to muzzle her dog in the dog park, but she refuses. I have a complaint on file with the Forest Preserve District so if it should happen again there is evidence of prior knowledge on the owners part which will increase her liability.

I think the Tibbie looks like a fox and that may have attracted the Foxhound. The Foxhound came from a rescue so the owner doesn't know what the hound may have been taught before adopting the dog.

What is remarkable about this example of prey drive is that there is no violence or indication of violence or anger on the part of the Foxhound. And this feature of prey drive in dogs is what makes dealing with prey drive so difficult. If the dog were to be angry or violent, it would signal to others that there is a problem. The fact that the capture is so peaceful and sneaky is a problem as the owners do not know to intervene until it is too late. according to my research this also applies to the predation of infants and children. Say, parents leave infant sleeping on couch with Huskey in the room as they momentarily go to the kitchen. When they return the infant is dead.

Principles from Experts:
Books reveal more about predatory behavior in dogs and how problem behavior is remediated.

(1) Predation is a fixed action pattern.
It is almost impossible to stop once the action begins. The typical pattern is chase, grab, shake. This explains why the owner could not stop her dog or get the dog to cooperate with her once the prey action pattern began. I believe the only reason my Tibbie wasn't killed by shaking was because my dog hung in the dog's mouth as if she were already dead. She didn't struggle or move which would have triggered the shaking.

(2) The act is quiet or the dog would not be successful in catching his prey.
This is why an owner can stand right next to their dog and not be alerted to the danger a dog represents to a small animal or other prey.

(3) Appropriate prey drive is best taught when the dog is a puppy.
There are critical periods and sensitive periods of socialization in which it is easy to teach appropriate behaviors to puppies. Puppies need to be socialized to what is NOT prey. Babies, toddlers, children aren't prey. Joggers, bicyclists aren't prey. Cats, small pets aren't prey. And in this case, my small dog isn't prey even though she looks like a fox. This is a behavior best prevented. This owner may not have socialized her dogs when they were puppies or even know their puppy history, the time when they can learn best what is not prey. She may not know what her dog is capable of regarding prey. It is a fact her Foxhound treated my small dog , a Tibbie, like prey.

(4) Because it is fun for the animal, once prey actions happen they are difficult to remedy for safe future behavior. Even after professional treatment, the dog can't be trusted.
Dr. Grandin said that remedial training for inappropriate prey drive is the only good use of a shock collar on an animal. This should be with the guidance of a trainer and even after training, the dog still can't be trusted. In the dog the fun of the prey action pattern takes precedence. In other words, once a cat killer, always a cat killer. This is why I think this dog continues to be a danger to small dogs especially dogs that look similar to foxes. And a lot of small dogs do, Poms, Poodle mixes, Lhasas, etc.

(5) The carcass is not damaged. It is intact. There are no outward signs of trauma only the death.
This accounts for the lack of blood on my Tibbie. It did take about a week for my dog to physically heal. But the fact that my dog didn't die from a broken neck or back doesn't mean she wasn't in mortal danger or the next dog will survive.

Prey drive is not always a matter of big over small. Sometimes the killing action is a small dog like a Jack Russell grabbing onto the throat of the larger dog, say a Huskey, and suffocating the prey. I used those examples because that happened to a Huskey at the dog park. The dog lived because people were able to break the hold of the Jack Russell.

Dogs Behaving Badly: An A-Z Guide to Understanding and Curing Behavorial Problems in Dogs
by Nicholas Dodman, faculty Tufts Animal Behavior Clinic, Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine

Animals in Translation
by Temple Grandin, Temple Grandin earned her Ph.D. in animal science from the University of Illinois; went on to become an associate professor at Colorado State University.

Whole Dog Journal, July 2003, Let Us Prey, by Pat Miller

Hi P

That person with the foxhound should muzzle her dog. In fact if the dog shows aggression it is stupid to let it run around a dog park.

Those types of owners make it bad for other dogs.

Sounds like in your situation the bigger problem is an owner that's an idiot. I would file a police report to include the assault on your dog and ensure that all parties are aware that it happened. I am curious as to if your Tibbie showed any fear of the foxhound prior to the incident.

The rest of your post, the expert write up, all can be discussed at length but one thing rings true. If you have a dog prone to attacking, they can attack ANYTHING. According to this expert, prey is not JUST a dog, or cat, or fox..but also a child or infant. Gosh, I wonder if this Temple Grandin, a PHD in Animal Science, this person must be an alarmist and naive about animal behavior as well, seeing as this Doctor Grandin seems to agree with me.

One more point; a behavior that has been reduced by training is just that, reduced. It might be reduced 99.9%, but there is always that bit small percentage that should have us take pause. I agree with the expert with the "once a cat killer, always a cat killer" or, like I always say, I see behavior like alcoholism as in "recovering always" sort of thing. Our Tina, for all of her victories, can still get into a bout of separation anxiety if not acknowledged and addressed in certain situations.

@rockjdog
I agree, they make it bad for other dogs. I know the Forest Preserve District has revoked the license of other dogs, just not this one yet. I did what I could do by researching the problem and registering the complaint.

@EAB
Yes the Tibbie did register fear prior to the incident and I should have paid closer attention. I noticed the Foxhound looking at us intently as we went in to the dog park. Not an unusual thing. My dog was very noisy but she is usually noisy when I carry her in. But this time she was especially vocal. I put her down and the Foxhound took less than a second to quietly come over and grabbed my dog. There was nothing about the Foxhound's behavior that would alarm anyone until she picked up my dog. But that is a feature of predation from my research.

One of the experts also mentioned circling behavior as a tipoff to potential predation.

If you look on youtube, you will see videos of dogs quietly stalking a squirrel or hounds running down rabbits for their owners. When you see the carcasses of the rabbits, they are intact.

If I were the owner of a dog with a prey drive that has had fun going after inappropriate prey, I would be extremely vigilant. And I would not leave any dog alone with a baby or small child ever. Because a first time is always possible.

I socialized my Cockers to many kinds of people including infants and toddlers as puppies. But if I did not know the early socialization of a dog such as a rescue, they would never be allowed alone with possible prey especially an infant.

I disagree that my dog, who is dog reactive, and has a high prey drive, would naturally attack and possibly kill a child just because you state a dog that would attack other dogs is 'unbalanced'.

He knows the difference between a guinea pig and a dog. And he knows the difference between dogs/critters and people.
And he loves people- especially children.

Normally EAB, i feel your comments are pretty good.
Very disappointed to see, what i consider BS, coming from you

@P- nice to see the Temple Grandin info- thanks for including them

It's ironic that the photo posted with this article shows what looks like a Savannah cat. While dogs seem to be what everyone is discussing, let's have a word or two about cats...

I agree that predatory behavior is natural. I agree that it shouldn't be treated as something abnormal. However, as the author states, it's a behavior that humans find unacceptable, at least, if it's with regard to dogs.

But, now people are breeding domestic cats with wild cats, and I suspect we'll see a lot more "unacceptable" feline predatory behavior in the news in time. Cats normally stalk and kill birds and small animals, we tend to be very forgiving of that. But, will the day come when some of these "big" cats kill a toy dog, or injure a child?

I love cats, but even the most docile domestic cat can be aggressive. In the course of performing professional pet sitting services, I've become all too aware of this. In fact, I've faced more aggressive cats than I have dogs in the 10 years I've been in the business.

The insurance companies have limited their liability for injuries by what they term "aggressive" breed dogs. Will cats be next on their hit list?

You say your dog is "dog reactive. If I understand what you mean by that, as in "reactive", then it's not included in what we're talking about. What we're talking about is "dog proactive" as in an unprovoked attack. Does your dog make efforts to attack and kills fully submissive or disinterested dogs, seeking it out as prey?

And there are no absolutes. A dog that does on thing doesn't always do something else, ie ALL dogs that attack dogs will also attack children. If that's what you gathered from me, then I'll step back from that. But the reference of the blog entry Doc posted was the laws being in place because of the "realm of possibility." Like, is it more probable a drunk will cause an accident than a sober driver? Yeah, of course. Is it entirely possible that a dog that preys on other dogs and cats could also seek out a child? According to Temple Grandin, the answer is yes.

My wife also brought up a point. "you mean if our dog attacks a squirrel" so let me be clear. No one is going to turn in your dog for killing a rodent. We're talking not only about cats and dogs, but "owned" cats and dogs; animals that if they were killed or injured the authorities would be informed.

"Once a cat killer, always a cat killer." I knew a cat-killing dog that, in his old age, became best friends with a cat. They would play together and sleep cuddled up side by side. Doesn't change the advice, but it's interesting how nature can play out.

I also had a kitten that grew up in a house with (loose) gerbils. The cat became a great hunter (mice, chipmunks, squirrels), but never once killed a gerbil.

I only once saw an animal (harmlessly) go after a kid in a predatory manner, and it looked like an honest mistake. I've often wondered whether what we call intelligence is a factor in directing prey drive - some of the least reliable family pets I've known also seemed to be the dumbest.

RE: dog is on a leash and crushes a free-roaming dog that gets in his face; you may not be liable for injury treatment...

Dr K, any thoughts on Brandie the Siberian husky -vs.- Jack the toy poodle? Not really predatory the way I see it.
The robust rats are plenty in South FL, my 80 pound Irish Wolfhound mix was on leash, attacked & bit by a robust rat that was off leash. If he had retaliated he would have killed the rat with one bite & then be deemed dangerous & if in Broward County he would be sentenced to death. Even though the rat attacked him (and me). I am scared to take him out!

http://www.opposingviews.com/i/a-husky-a-poodle-and-a-dangerous-dog-law/follow_ups

I've put off joining from dolittler until now because I don't like this site much at all, but the comment chain finally got me.

EAB, you seem to state that a dog that goes after rodents/squirrels is no concern but that one that goes after cats or other dogs is. Where do rabbits fit in? At what point do they lose the ability to 'contain themselves' for lack of a better description and start going after children? If they kill a rabbit? A chihuahua? I too have to disagree with your responses to this post. Either they CAN differentiate potential prey and be choosy, or they can't. I will grant that to many (even well-behaved and what I would consider 'balanced') dogs, babies and toddlers don't count as 'human' and are viewed more as strange objects. Which may make a dog that is good with adults and even children unsafe around them and a darn good reason to, say, not leave babies unattended around pets.

I have met many dogs of purebred herding breeds that WERE documented cat killers. I agree that herding dogs can also just herd, without harm to the herded, as well. MOST dog bites are from neglected dogs, statistically dogs that are intact and chained outdoors. I'm fairly sure there was nothing in that epidemiology study that mentioned any history of attacking other animals as correlating with their human bites.

I agree with H. Houlahan though: predatory aggression towards small furry animals doesn't correlate with a danger to human society in my professional or personal experience. That said, I would count having predatory tendencies against a dog if I was looking for one. They are impossible to eradicate, a PITA to manage, and there are plenty of dogs out there who don't display them to a problematic extent. One of my dogs is simply reactive, but I worry that when those little obnoxious things get in his face, they're gonna die. Which would be sad for their family.

"Either they CAN differentiate potential prey and be choosy, or they can't."

There's very little behaviour that's purely binary and that includes control. Take a look at kids, dogs, or cats playing and it's obvious that mock battle can escalate and self-control can slip. The same goes for idiotic aggression in traffic for supposedly adult humans.

We watch the signs. If Smartcat's ears go back and down when she's after Da Bird or the laser dot, her claw control has gone down too, and it doesn't pay to get bare skin near them.

My comments are not from a judgment but rather a reality standpoint. If your dog goes after and kills a squirrel, it's reasonable to assume that it's not someone's pet. Since it's not someone's pet, it probably won't be reported. Now if the squirrel or rabbit is someone's pet, well, that's going to be reported. However, that's unlikely, right?

That's the fundamental difference. Dr. K wanted to know why cats don't get punished for chasing rodents but dogs get a bad rap when they attack a small dog or cat. Simple; because it's reported as the cat or small dog has a human owner/guardian to witness and report the issue.

I have a foxhound/pointer mix that is severely aggressive toward strangers and now other dogs. We adopted her from a rescue when she was 5 months old, and she is now 2 years old. When we first got her, she displayed some signs of aggression by barking and nipping at the fingers of our friends who would come over. Once she got to know our friends, she was fine with them. She never punctured skin or drew blood. But then she started jumping over the fence when out in the yard and chasing down strangers walking by on the street and biting them. She goes into a rage when attacking a stranger and doesn't respond to me and she is very difficult to regain control of. So after the first incident when she chased down a guy and bit him, we tried an electric fence. She went right over it and bit another man, this time puncturing the skin and severely brusing his leg. So then we started making her wear a muzzle and be leashed every time she left the house, and when let out in the yard to go to the bathroom she has to be tied up and in the backyard. She was always fine at the dog park and simply played with the other dogs, until a couple months ago when she aggressively went after two different men and ended up biting one. Now she doesn't go to the dog park anymore.

It used to be only male strangers that would trigger the aggression, but now it is also women. We recently had a female dog trainer come to our home to do an evaluation, and she had to wear a bite sleeze because the dog was so aggressive. And now, when I take her on walks down the street (with her muzzle on), the neighbor's dogs (whom she used to enjoy playing with) will try to say hello through their fences and she will try to attack them also.

We have tried three different dog trainers and spent hundreds of dollars on training classes and in-home private lessons, and cannot afford to spend any more money. The aggression is progressively getting worse, and she is a liability, but she's also a member of our family and we love her. We have two choices:

1. We can keep her and simply manage it through prevention, which means she will be confined to wearing a muzzle and leash every time she leaves the house and will not be able to play with other dogs ever again for the rest of her life, and we'll always have the stress of knowing that we're harboring a dangerous dog in our house and if an accident should happen where she is let out, we're facing a huge risk, or;

2. We can euthanize her.

Suggestions?