Mary Smith was one of my professors, and she is just an entertaining in lecture. I took Sheep and Goat Medicine my fourth year about 50/50 because I like sheep and goats vs. getting to go on farm trips with Dr. Smith. Make no mistake, she likes the "hobby" farmers - she's one of the few large animal clinicians there that will deign to see the smaller farms.

H, I'm not saying at all that the quality of service or dedication of EMS differs between volunteers and professionals.  I'm aware that both have the same training & quality-of-care requirements.  I'm saying volleys have more leeway in dictating when and how often they will be on call, and for many people that is a deciding factor in whether to be a volunteer or a paid professional.  In any case, it's tangent to this post, so I'm done talking about it.

Barb, not all the implications are sad. But it'd still be nice for you to elaborate. 

It's also worth saying that SKILL/TALENT, COMPASSION, and ETHICS are on a different axis than the hobby-lifestyle-professional axis.

While there may be well defined relationships, they do need to be measured differently.

For instance, a puppymill has the infrastructure of a professional but their ethics are poor, their compassion low, and their talent comes in the shady marketing of their product instead of the wise and careful production of the product.

In reading about the formation of breeds, a common situation seems to be perhaps a single breeder who grew from a hobbyist to a lifestyler to a professional.  While they had their beloved family pets, the sheer number of animals they needed to bring together to form their breed would suggest that they all weren't sleeping on the bed.

As far as talent goes, think about spots at different levels. PeeWee is about participation, is local, and usually family member is running the team and there's a very small budget.  This doesn't prevent there from being excellence... there are youth teams that have dynasties more impressive than any professional team.

High School and College teams are a balance between participation and recruiting, enjoyment and profit. Some high schools are big enough to draw kids from other counties or even states. Players are recruited, but many are walk-ons from the student body.

Unlike youth teams, though, many college teams are a significant money maker for their schools and decisions are made to fill seats to fill school coffers. 

Whereas many youth teams have Dad as coach, it's very rare in high school and college teams to find Jr. as the quarterback, but it does happen.

Many sports aficionados prefer the best college teams because they have the best balance of passion, talent, and competitiveness. 

Pro-teams take it to a different level and are unbound by participation. Players don't have to be native to the state, there's no concern with academics to pair with athletics, there's a much more significant influence of money and marketing.

And yet all are essentially playing the same game by the same rules.

Animals, dogs in particular, are more complicated because we're not even playing by the same rules for the same goal. 

But again, quality can come from any level.

Courtney, I'm not following you.  I've deployed on SAR responses in nine states, three regions, and trained with and taught SAR responders from all over the country, including NYS, over the past nineteen years.  I've been an EMT for sixteen years.  My husband is a firefighter.  I've never met any responder in any of those professions who thinks that a volunteer shouldn't have to meet the same high standards of training and operations as someone who is paid to perform the same service.  No one has ever said "It's okay that you dropped that patient on the stairs/screwed up that drug dosage/left base with an uncharged defibrillator,  after all, you're just a volunteer."  Anyone who reveals by word or deed that she thinks she doesn't need to meet those pesky standards for SAR because "It's just a hobby, I'm not getting paid" is quickly shown the door in any legitimate unit.  I don't think this "differs by state."

I see no differences in law in NYS between paid and volunteer EMTs.  You all have to recert at 37 months.

So if I get hurt in NY, I should be sure to ask the responding ambulance crew members whether they are "professional" or "volunteer," because the standards of performance for the latter are less than for the former? Egads.  What if a medic has a paid job in the city and volunteers with his little local service a couple times a week -- can he slack off and be a wanker while logging volunteer time?

And of course, by this way of seeing things, there are virtually no professionals handling SAR dogs or performing mountain rescue in the US.

I saw lots of goats when I practiced in Texas.  Good times!  The average goat is smarter than the average human, IMHO.

Questions for Dr. K:

1)  How often do they escape?  Or better yet, how much time do you spend on fence maintenance?  Seems like some of my clients had different goats escaping every night.

2)  Parasites were awful in goats in TX.  How do you keep them at bay in SoFlo?  Daily ivermectin baths?

PMF

Houlehan: 

"On a slightly different note, fire, EMS, and SAR responders reject the "volunteer" vs. "professional" labels. There are paid and unpaid professionals. (And wankers in both camps, sad to say.)"

Maybe this differs by state; in mine (New York) we EMTs definitely distinguish between volunteer and professional.  While we get the same training, it's a matter of obligation.  Volunteers can offer their services for as much or as little time as they please; paid EMS must work in a professional capacity for a minimum number of hours per year to maintain their state certification.  Volunteers can tell their fire department can fade in and out of service; paid EMS is obligated to come to work regularly.  Volunteers can ignore a pager alert if there are already enough volunteers available; EMS has to be ready to jump on a rig, no matter what.  I'd rather be a volunteer, thank you!

I hate labels.  Think of the labels that we have in society that draw lines; ones related to religion, politics, education, and the like.  I have found there are no absolutes in life except for ones like "compentent/incompentent" or "good/evil", stuff like that.  The labels described above are being used as substitutes for the previous labels I listed.  It almost never works and usually ends up getting somebody's feathers ruffled.

Yes, that 'box' thing can be problematic.  Several years back one aspect of my job involved explaining to a group of people (various ages usually, but sometimes just school-age), the intricacies of animal lives and their place in a specific habitat.  Because the other aspect of the job was the care of those (and other) animals, I was not considered an 'educator' as where other staff who only worked with school-age children.  And none of us were 'teachers' because we didn't work in a school building.  All of us were educating others, and while the other staff members chafed at the term 'informal educators' they didn't even want me to be considered as such.  So I joined a different professional group and was certified as an interpreter (not a translator).  No matter what others thought, I knew I was skilled and passionate about what I was doing, and that, in many cases, I was better at engaging my audience and they learned more from me than others, no matter what they were called.

Since you are doing this for yourself and your family (including the furry and feathered members), it really is only their opinions and your satisfaction with your results that matter.  Are your animals healthy, and are you enjoying the work (which it is), and do you want to continue and/or expand your endeavors, or are your animals sick, do you hate what you're doing and slough off as much (or all) of the work, and do you wish you'd never started?  If you are on one side, you're doing it right.  On the other, not so much.

"Pai, how much of "the family" do you figure lives in kennels or cages in the backyard, rather than inside the house? I don't think it's the same thing all. Animals that are meant to be family companions need to be raised in the family, not somewhere nearby but not underfoot."

There are lots of 'BYBs' that raise their dogs in the house like family. I've found the label has nothing to do with where the animals themselves are raised; and means more that the breeder is ignorant of basic health tests/care and the breed standard, and breeds whatever cute animal with 'papers' they have lying around in order to sell puppies for profit. That's it.

Simply having a kennel does not mean you are a bad breeder, just as simply raising your animals as part of your family means you're breeding responsibly. It's much more complex of an issue than that, which is why I think the labels of 'Backyard Breeder' and 'Hobby Breeder' are actually useless, because they don't actually define what a GOOD breeder DOES. Better to just stick with 'reputable' and 'irresponsible'.

How do we define fish breeders/reptile people/etc?

Do we have to have several acres with heated ponds/enclosures and the like to be a non-hobbist?  Do we have to be a store open to the public?  What takes us from basement breeder to mainstream?  Is it perhaps scale of operation?

I'm currently a fish hobbist (I admit I do it in my spare time for pleasure) but not so long ago I was much more serious with my breeding, profiting from my efforts.

It's my understanding that when it comes to "exotics" most breeders would be considered hobbists not the professionals that they truly are.

When it comes to our furry companion animals (I obviously have no experience in the farm animal side) I believe that all breeders are professional when:--they keep quality animals in quality environments (inside or outside the home) -- they have a good reputation and references and have been doing their job for a long time -- they do more with their animals than just breed ie: shows, competitions, work, clubs and organizations -- they do it full time, meaning they are available to transact business during business hours.  Some are good professionals, other's aren't.

Ok, Christopher, kudos on honesty! Despite the sad implications

The definitive take on "hobby" and "amateur" can be found in Aldo Leopold's A Sand County Almanac.  The chapter is a "A Man's Leisure Time."

On a slightly different note, fire, EMS, and SAR responders reject the "volunteer" vs. "professional" labels.  There are paid and unpaid professionals.  (And wankers in both camps, sad to say.)

This is an excellent question and one I've grappled with myself, especially in relation to Border Collies.

<a target="_blank" href="http://www.astraean.com/borderwars/2008/12/third-estate-of-border-collie.html">Third Estate of the Border Collie</a>

<a target="_blank" href="http://www.astraean.com/borderwars/2008/12/dying-breed.html">A Dying Breed</a>

In general, Western Culture likes boxes and boundaries that things should fit in nicely, and we eschew acontinuum mentality. We like fractions more than percentiles, we like or device knobs to click to whole numbers instead of a smooth rheostat, we rate our movies with two thumbs and restaurants with 4 stars, and our academic achievement with 5 letters and a few milestone degrees.

Although scale and intent are harder to place such easy marks on, in Border Collies, I can usually sort the active people into "hobbyists" versus "lifestylers" versus "professionals."

I am a hobbyist, and this means that despite spending considerably more time, money, and effort on dogs than Average Joe, the concessions I make are mostly mainstream. Sure, I need property and make decisions on cars and vacations around my dogs. And yes, I breed, but when it suits me primarily and certainly not very often.

More often than not, a hobbyist lacks the scale needed to make concessions like outdoor kennels, or they spend money to visit sheep to work/play/train with versus owning their own pasture land and sheep.

A Lifestyler has made a more significant investment in changing the way they live to accommodate their passion. Although they would likely come to verbal blows if they were in a room together, both John Katz and Donald McCaig fit this model to me. They both chose to leave urban careers to run a small farm, for the desire to live that lifestyle more than an economic or career decision. Both obviously supplement this with income from writing, and the degree of serious effort might be vary, and they might even make the vast majority of their income from the lifestyle, but relationship with the animals is more significant than the trappings of professionalism.

The professional turns that equation around, the bottom line is more important than the players, decisions are made with profit first, or at least there are situations where the business would hold more importance to a decision than the enjoyment or the lifestyle or the animals themselves.

This isn't saying that professionalism necessitates dispassionate coldness, but all emotions can't be indulged. A hobbyist probably considers all their dogs like family/children and would rarely consider "firing for cause," and probably has too few dogs to need structure like kennels. If you've never kept two breeding bitches or related intact dogs of opposite sex that you don't want to breed, you'll likely see kennels as cruel.

The lifestylers often have dogs that they train for a while and then trade or sell. Every animal is not family. They might very well bring in new blood with a bitch or stud and then sell them later. Many have more dogs than they would if they just wanted pets because a breeding program requires it, or they wish to experiment more actively, move their lines along faster, or even meet market demands.

Buying and selling new animals is considered with the collective goals in mind, not just the enjoyment of the breeder.

On the extreme professional side, there might very well be someone who is more passionate about the work, the sport, or the profit than they are about the animals individually. They are running a business and even if they do love the animals, the art lies elsewhere.

All excellent comments that  seek both heart & mind!

Sorry if I seem corny on this topic, just one that goes to heart when combining both rescue and breeder ethics!

Though really, it's strange that we say "Breeders who raise their animals as family are 'good breeders" and then call 'bad breeders' 'people who raise their animals in the backyard' (which is something that a 'good breeder' with a yard does too) just makes the entire labeling convention a mess, in my opinion.

Pai, how much of "the family" do you figure lives in kennels or cages in the backyard, rather than inside the house? I don't think it's the same thing all. Animals that are meant to be family companions need to be raised in the family, not somewhere nearby but not underfoot.

The term "hobby breeder" can also be confusing because I've heard at least one anti-breeding activist sneer "How can breeding animals be a hobby?"  With the insinuation that we get off watching our dogs copulate.

The truth of course, that the actual hobby is whatever it is that we DO with our dogs... hunting, tracking, agility, showing, herding, obedience trials, etc etc.  We breed dogs just so that we will have more that meet our specific criteria so that we can continue doing our hobby.  Although those criteria MAY occasionally be met by the sort of random-bred or irresponsibly-bred dog one finds in most shelters and rescues, that is the exception rather than the rule.

Perhaps it's not so much "pro" vs. "hobby", but "business" vs "hobby".

While some livestock animals can make good pets, a livestock business implies raising animals for either breeding/sale, fiber or food.  Their primary role is not to be companions or family members, but to produce something of value.  And yes, the mindset of a livestock business is your cost per animal on average cannot exceed your income per animal.  Sure, farmers lose money at times, but to continue farming on any kind of scale means you sometimes make decisions about what you'll spend on vet care for your animals based on their value.  Not to mention their life expectancy if they are food animals who are not destined for a long life.  Obviously they are animals in your care and you shouldn't allow them to suffer but they are probably not going to get hip replacement surgery under the most expensive anesthesia protocols.  Having pets is a different story, pretty much by definition they are going to cost you money and not bring in any income, and yet you hope they live as long as possible and give them the best care you can afford.  I suppose hobby farming might fall somewhere in between.

And another comment, I personaly know two professional (per my above deffinition) dog breaders who do right by their dogs.  As well as I or anyone I know does, better in fact than some.

As a life long farmer, if your agg opperation pays for itself, and then some, most or all of the time you are a professional.  All other types are hobbiests, plain and simple.  Defraying food or fiber costs dosent count unless you are saving more than it would cost you to go out an buy said item.  THis makes no assumptions on knowlage, hobbiest can often know their animals/crops better than a pro as they can spend more time and money on the object that it is worth.  

Jacob L'Etoile

It's funny, because I've read 'How To Recognize Reputable Breeder' lists that use 'hobby breeder' as a synonym for 'backyard breeder', and not as a positive label. Which just adds to the confusion...

Though really, it's strange that we say "Breeders who raise their animals as family are 'good breeders" and then call 'bad breeders' 'people who raise their animals in the backyard' (which is something that a 'good breeder' with a yard does too) just makes the entire labeling convention a mess, in my opinion.

I love you Dr. K.! You said this best!

"In other ways, however, it’s much more than a hobby. 1) Because it’s a job as well as a pleasurable activity (an avocation IS distinct from a hobby, after all)....."

 "Sure, I’ll argue that some of the same could be said of hobby breeding dogs, cats and other companion animals, but here’s the biggest difference: In my eyes, “hobby breeding” is a term used to elevate the status of a companion animal breeder––as in, “Her cats have the best dispositions. She’s an excellent example of a first-rate hobby breeder.”

What denotes a professional? Lots of things:

"money talks, puppy walks"

"no screening or fussiness in placement"

"derives considerable or majority of income from animal sales"

Offers little to no liability in health guarantees"

"does not view companion animal as anything more than means to an end"

I probably can come up with others with some more thought.

Backyard breeder: my ____, is completely adorable and should be bred. What health problems? What genetic risks?

"In other ways, however, it's much more than a hobby. 1) Because it's a job as well as a pleasurable activity (an avocation IS distinct from a hobby, after all). 2) Because we all need to eat, wear fiber, etc., which means it can pay for itself (and has the potential to bring a significant side income, too). 3) Because it's surprisingly often an introduction to a career change, lifestyle changing as it necessarily is."

I think many other activities fit into this mold:  in particular fruit/vegetable gardening, but also canning, beekeeping, baking, sewing/knitting/weaving/crocheting, and home improvement, to list just a few things.  Personally, I enjoy hobbies more when they provide something useful.  I don't think calling something a hobby devalues the participant.  I would imagine many creative jobs, being done by wholly capable people, originated in a hobby.  Farm away!