Talk about arrogance, Fotini!  Kate - not me, although I understand how a hurried, paranoid mind like yours makes such mistakes - was stating a universal which others have already done, and you didn't call them on it.  Di said it, so did el_chupacabra, and both before you came in with your pissy remarks.  Again, I think you're an idiot.

Poor poor dog!  I was in the vets office one day waiting to check in my yorkie for a routine dental when a man with a tiny yorkie (he bragged she wasn't even 4 lbs) came in.  Turns out he breed her to his 'stud' who was 'eight pounds and a nice looking dog'.

Poor dear.  Two pups had been born dead after over 8 hours of labor before he finally brought her in to see if anything was left.

You have to wonder what the HELL they were thinking.  I think it's more about dollar signs than about ignorance- quick way to make a buck of trixie after she's no longer an adorable ball of puppy fluff.

@Kate

Pure arrogance!  You are the smartest of all people!  Feeling better?

it's hard to teach stupid people...

buying and diluting cow strength xylazine and using it on dogs

The more concentrated form is labelled for use in horses.  Cattle and other ruminants are actually exquisitely sensitive to xylazine; the standing sedation dose for a 1000-lb horse (200-250 mg) would significantly slow a 1000-lb cow and might drop it to the ground.  It's easy to kill a ruminant with an overdose of xylazine so the less concentrated (dog and cat) formulation is recommended, though I'm fairly xylazine is not labelled for use in cattle or other ruminants and I know its use is prohibited in food animals.

Labelling aside, dogs are much less sensitive to xylazine than are horses.  I usually give 500 mg xylazine to a 1000-lb horse as pre-medication prior to general anesthesia vs. 100 mg xylazine for pre-medication of a 100-lb dog.

Horse doses are somewhat dependent on breed and temperament as well as size.  I use the 1000-lb "standard" sedation dose on 1 ton+ draft horses.  If I dosed a draft in proportion to its size, I'd be reduced to a smear on the barn floor.

And no, I don't use xylazine in dogs or cats.  I don't work on dogs or cats.

Yes, Elizabeth, you have not & I recall your defense in the past.

Let's get down to brass tacks. Te reason Stefani, me, Fotini have credibility is simply because our present and pre- bad vet experiences illustrate a history of attempting to obtain good care for ALL of our pets for years.

For whatever reason, each of us ran into a very bad situation, and from that we looked beyond and found out this is not "isolated, nor unique" to us.

That is why we speak out. That is why we work desperately for change. Not because of fear that it will happen to "US" again, but so it won't happen to others.

All of you know that, some want to believe that it is "rare", some want to believe we are "bad people", or simply vindictive over an accident---simply NOT true. We grow in numbers, though most are silent.

Companion Animal Protection Alliance

Newsletter for the CAPA

"loose lips sinks ships"

Barb/NH:

I never said you didn't echo those sentiments..

And Elizabeth; have not I ECHOED the same sentiments? Of willing to shine shoes & iron lab coat of same ethical & compassionate professional?

My goodness, here is where "us"tiring badmouths part ways (and I do refer to us collectively).

We do know the best from the worst, and we do recognize those good as gold professionals we will always hold in high regard!

Stefani:

I agree there is a big vast space between mistake and deliberate. But "As is buying and diluting cow strength xylazine and using it on dogs." that's deliberate.. People may call it negligence but to me doing things that to save money ( or for whatever reason ) is disaster waiting to happen.. you know what you are doing is wrong and you still choose to do it. The same goes for an the Vet leaving an untrained person to give insulin and the results are an overdose.. disaster n to happen. 

I realize things like this make it hard to trust other Vets but blaming all Vets for these things is not the answer either ( not that you are ). But some here seem too. There are plenty of Vets out there that do their very best for the animals.. I know several.. I am proud to know them actually.

I wasn't going to respond to Beth, but since others have . . .

I was not the least bit angry when I made ANY of the posts in this thread.  That's just what you are choosing to see, it's not what is there.  And true, we've veered a bit, but I was answering others.  Also, I am not "bashing" anyone.  My comments have been mostly academic remarks.  

It is actually this very point of view that I take issue with among the conscientious memberes of the vet profession:  Either veterinary errors are merely totally understandable things that happen in the general due course of work, or it is deliberate murder, nothing in between.  That's so not true. 

As to this discussion being off topci I beg to differ, because assigning culpability for the death of the dog WAS the topic.  I merely asserted that I don't have enough information to say that the vet plays no part here.  I've not said he did, either.  There really isn't enough information.  The conversation went from there.

None of that negates the irresponsibility of the clients, which I have now said and agreed with Dr. K about for the third time. 

If it's maddening to listen to us, it is also maddening that implying a vet may share in fault hypothetically, academically (not specifically in this case as I repeatedly said) is tantamount to an attack on your entire profession and each one of you personally.  You attack us back, righteously as though you had been attacked, yet your perception of "angry" people attacking you or your entire profession is just what you choose to see.   This really seems to me some kind of desperate attempt to silence any and all critical look at quality in vet med.  I don't implicate Dr. K in that attitude at all, just some of you -- who seem to think you need to come to her defense or defend an attack against your ENTIRE professsion and each individual member of it, when such an attack was in fact never launched.

Anyone who looks at how I spend my money will see exactly what I value, and why I care about veterinary quality.  My pets are a high priority in my life. I put my money where my mouth is. If I come to this blog to put my mouth where my money is, that makes me like an awful lot of people who comment on blogs.  (Car enthusiasts, hobby pilots, political junkies, breeders, etc)

Natalie, the idiot owner who Beth described, is SHOULD get a dopesmack for his horrid 'care' which caused the death of 5 dogs.  If he's been someone who'd killed 5 dogs in some other way, we'd all be saying he should be prosecuted.  It was NO vet's fault what happened.  Beth is a caring person for bottlefeeding (and all the attending care) the five remaining puppies, and she is certainly 'within normal limits' to think the owner should get some kind of 'come to Jesus' talk, if not something a bit harsher.  She wasn't being self righteous, and she has every reason (and right) to be angry.

Dr. Steve - odd passages - just seem to point out Biblical contradictions, and not as helpful as you might think - sorry.

Dr. Dubin (and Barb?), sometimes it's just to hard to resist: too much fun pointing out to a fool that he (she?) is a fool. But you are right.

Oh yeah, Dr. Dubin:

Care to clarify on who "follies"?

Don't forget we need US English interpretation!

From the 26th chapter of Proverbs 

4 Do not answer a fool according to his folly,or you will be like him yourself.

 5 Answer a fool according to his folly,or he will be wise in his own eyes.

Beth: Sorry to offend & become boring. I recognize other folk's posts as repetitive too. That's what happens with a "good memory" and being a several year subscriber.

You get to know others that way too!

But, heck, there are newbies every day, and to them this is all new news. Including blogs that take on a bit of a different twist to the same story.

Skip us, we don't mind nor will be offended! We are here to stay just like everyone or anyone else.

As to your sharing of experience? Horrid, inexcusable, cannot add enough adjectives to adequately describe. I had more than a couple of years in rescue, practically gave me ulcers.

Does Dr. K. suffer anxiety with my, Stef's, Fotini's, etc. posts? I think not, we give alternative views of the "dark side or bad apple bunch". Are we happy & glad to? Absolutely not, we wish we were among the "happy & un-tainted crowd" all the time.

We will come down on the truly abusive client as fast as the truly abusive professional, I can assure you.

Beth Patterson, if you don't sound angry and self-righteous yourself, you do sound self-righteous and pontificating. If you read Stefani's (and certain others') comments with a slightly less snooty attitude, you might notice that these people are responding to other people's points that might have a less direct (and a slightly more tenuous) relationship to the topic of the post. They do, nonetheless, relate to it, and that's what blogging is for: for a discussion that sometimes branches off into related subjects; it's not for presenting a scientific dissertation. For example, I commented on Dr. Hobson's statement about the use of the Internet as a source of veterinary/medical knowledge. Stefani brought up the issue of placing responsibility where it belongs in cases such as the one in this post: where both the owner (or, hypothetically, a parent) is to blame to begin with but where the provider of care may be to blame at least in part as well. There is no self-righteousness of pushing of any agenda here, just stating opinions from a given perspective.

Yea, Beth!  While I think horror stories can and should be brought up when they are on topic (I've mentioned mine a few times), when it's just an excuse to bash, is an attention-grabbing behavior that frustrates and pisses off more than just me.   

Fotini, Thanks.

Dr. K, U headed to NAVC?

Running the 5K?

I will be heading down there in about an hour.

Lordy, Been there, done that, got the tshirt!

Currently bottle feeding five (out of nine original) Rottie puppies.  Guy had male (stays outside on a chain, lovely).  Wants to make money.  Gets a female puppy.

She gets pregnant at 10 months.  NO prenatal care.  Never had shots. 

Goes into labor.  Has puppy stuck for A WEEK.  Takes her to vet complaining of no money to pay bill.  Vet does what they can advises pups need to be pulled. 

A week later shows up with mom who is comatose and dying of parvo.  Dies at vets two hours later.  Owner is griefstricken...  she was "his girl".  Not his girl he ever took care of mind you <insert eye roll icon here>.  Oh and four of his money making puppies are dead too.

Two days later finally relinquishes the remaining puppies because bottle feeding is too expensive and too much work.  Wants us to pay him for them or feed them for free and return for him to sell.  We refuse both offers.  Has his little girl child carry them in to surrender (I think to make us feel bad).  Their weight was 1/2 of what it should be for their age.

Today all five are back at vet since we're still worried about parvo.  At three weeks old they are so susceptible. 

I'm "just" the rescuer.  I can be amazingly tactful but this guy?  No way.  He killed all those dogs as surely as shooting them himself.  His future plan?  To buy another female and try again.  Learned NOTHING.  Its a good thing I don't know who he is or where he lives because he would get a piece of my mind even if I don't have much to spare.

I say you can't count on idjits to understand logic and tact.  If they aren't already asking you if there is anything THEY could have done to head off the situation then stronger language is called for.  People are just not told what they do wrong anymore; we issue bulletins directed at all when what we really need to do is train, talk and possibly word-smack those who aren't 'getting it'.

And sorry to go on so long but Stefani, Fotini and occasionally Barbara A....   do you have any idea how incredibly wonderful it would be to have you stay on topic and not push your agenda on folks over and over and over? 

This post was about an ignorant owner and Dr K's response to THEM.  Discussion would logically revolve around whether her response was too harsh, too light, etc.  Other posts have been about other vet's (and her own) failings with procedures and those are great places to air your grievances.  This one was not.  Dr K is a saint to put up with ya'll; I would have banned you long, long ago...  and as a reader I admit I try so hard to skip your posts because they are so self righteous and angry.   

Elizabeth from Nova Scotia:

Re mistake vs. deliberate.

Of course, deliberate killing by medical and veterinary professionals is, as far as I know, exceedingly rare. 

But that doesn't mean that all the deaths that weren't deliberate murder are simply "mistakes" that are human and understandable.  There is a vast ground in between, and this is where many of the causes of death lie.

In that vast space between understandable human errors and deliberate killing lies malpractice and negligence.  When an incident or pattern of negligence or substandard practice sets the stage for high complicatinos and deaths.

Things like:

Leaving your kid, whose sole prior veterinary experiences have been kennel tasks on college break, in charge of a diabetic patient including giving insulin.  The result (if its death) is not exactly deliberate murder, but it is negligence which DUH resulted in an "accidental" overdose.  Although in the case of my cat the overdose was a mistake, it wasn't on purpose, the fact that a kid with only limited prior kennel cleaning experience was left to give insulin to my cat is, IMHO, totally inexcusable negligence.

This is an example of the type of thing that usually kills pets or people when the die due to "iatrogenic" causes.  It's not deliberate killing per se, duh.  But its far far far from a simple, understandable error.

As is buying and diluting cow strength xylazine and using it on dogs.

IMHO.

Mutley's mom,

If  I recall correctly, in your case the vet used the concentration of xylazine that is marketed for cows rather than small animals, right?  Also it was used as a sole agent, rather than in combination, right?  And he died within minutes of the injection, right?  They never even did the neuter (of course not, dead dog) right but you had paid for it right?

Yup, sounds like a solid case to me.

:)

<<Are you reading my mind???>>

that's my side job, I do tarot cards and runes as well....(and I'm really good at the runes..) LOL

LorriM:

Are you reading my mind??? Thanks for my mind's copy/paste!

EAB:

Oh, I have done my homework well enough not to be fooled ever again by any professional or otherwise!   

Even if pet owners should know better, sometimes they just don't. No matter how annoying or stupid they might be, you can't possibly educate them and help them become better pet owners if you alienate them. All you will do is help create a pet owner who won't take their pet to a vet because they won't deal with the lecture/judgement. People will only learn through people who are willing to keep their personal judgement to a minimum in order to help them understand the folly of their decisions.

we all learn through mistakes. even those who are holier then thou and judgemental make mistakes. A lot of raw feelings in some of these previous posts, and worthy of a look.

To Fontini, the only thing someone having a degree or doctorate means is that they can charge for a certain service.  The label professional means the same thing.  You are doing the right thing by doing your homnework prior to trusting a vet, or plumber or contractor for that matter. 

Hobson,

Ditto to Barb's (A./NH) comments. 

Your writing style, demeanor, and unbiased judgment encourage one to trust you!  Although my trust in vets is not blind anymore, I would definetely consider you an exception!!!

my new favorite line: "Ignorance does not not absolve you of responsibility" :)

i think a lot of people sometimes forget that it is the veterinarian's responsibility to be an advocate for their patient.  and this does not always correlate with being nice to the owners.  sometimes you can be nice and get the point across. sometimes you need to be blunt. and other times you need to get in their face and say "how could you let this happen?" ...figuratively speaking.

a line i've used [too often] in the past: "i'm not saying this to upset you -i just don't want this to happen to your other/next cat/dog at home."

EAB: I agree and have no qualms with :

"Carissa, you and I actually agree. It seems to me that any responsible breeder shouldn't have any issue with the regulatory suggestions I put forth. So why the fuss? Again, one cannot say "I already drive 55MPH, so the speed limit signs do not apply to ME." It's illogical, correct? You are saying that responsible breeders are already doing the things that I suggest. That may be, and that's great. Then putting forth regulation mandating such wouldn't be a problem."

 (although I have taken enormous heat from folks over the "slippery slope argument"

I will never stop telling what happened to my dog, because it I am never going to be over his death. It was wrong and done by a vet who decieved me by not disclosing that they were a rescue group. I didn't go there for a discount service. I went there because they were what I thought and much of the public thinks was a veterinary clinic not a low cost spay & neuter facility.  I just lost my mitral valve heart dog that I had spent well into the thousands of dollars to keep him from suffering, I had never questioned fees ever before in my life. I had however trusted the veterinarian to do what was right and safe for my pet. But there was a breach of contract and trust that compromised my dog. I never blamed Dr K either. I just wanted an explkanation from a professional opinion which I have never been able to get from anyone in the veterinary world except my expert witness that stated this drug Xylazine was responsible for my dogs death. You see other veterinarians stated that this was the standard of care. Since other veterinarians still today use this drug it's ok to use according to the State Veterinary Board. It's ok to use on any pet according to them as long as a vet chooses to use this drug any way they seee fit. I don't see it that way, and will never allow it to be used again on any pet I own. Are you sick of the truth also? I WILL NEVER STOP TELLING MUTLEY"S STORY The truth hurts I guess.  MUTLEY was a big part of my life and now he is gone because a vet made a horrible dicision in which he chose to keep the information from me and more money in his pocket, it was not about the safe care of my pet but about the profit instead. I also never said that there were no good vets either so stop being so defensive.  Why is it that veterinarians defend each other whether they are wrong or not , at least I have seen this to be true in my case?   

Elizabeth: You have been on this blog long enough to recall Fotini's many remarks. That include praise for previous "foreign care" and current care.

Mistake or deliberate? Well visit her site & decide. It is pretty clear to most.

Mine? That should also be self evidence. Gosh I am going to have a 100 more personal opinions to defend now. That should worry anyone, USA citizen or not (and you are not---lucky you!--not meant facetiously)

 Fotini: If I lost a child to a misdiagnosis I know it wold be very difficult to forgive the doctors involved. But I also know I would ask myself "was this a mistake or was it  deliberate". To me there is a big difference.

Barbara A : You said Fotini doesn't blame all Vets, well you could have fooled me..

Fotini said, "When are you going to stop blaming guardians and start blaming yourselves (vets) as well for such misfortunes???? Attacking people who help you make a comfortable living isn't the correct approach."

I say there is a lot of blame there.  

Actually, it did refer to your opinion - it was a comment, which yes, is based on my opinion, of your comments.  And I do think that it was obvious what my opinion was concerning the merits of your idea of restricted breeding and ownership. 

And, in this post's comments thread, I didn't call you an idiot - that was in the other thread.  As I mentioned, you obviously haven't been visiting this site for very long if you think my comments are so out of line.  I don't think they are, and I stand by them. 

Oh, by the way, I won't be contacting you personally, because, well...euuwww.

I see the thread changed!

Elizabeth/NS: Fotini does NOT blame every vet & NEITHER do I !

VMDiva: That is one of my peeves too! An unspayed bitch at 10-12 yrs old, uugghhh! Why? I ask myself that.

Oh, how about states without lowcost s/n implementing a program? Dr. K.'s previous blogs have illustrated how successful every no-low cost spay/neuter day is in her home state of FL.

And economic times? Today I was asked where some "reasonable" diagnosis & treatment can be obtained for his beloved 10 yr. old neutered dog. He is by far NOT a cheapskate, but has been burdened unexpectedly in taking care of his Mom (relatively young too) that has had a couple of strokes without health insurance. If that isn't stepping up to take care, I don't know what else is.

Times are pretty bad, even with employment---let alone , unemployed!

Forgot.  The email is, again, picklemilo@yahoo.com.  I am also available on Facebook, MSN, and yahoo messenger.  If you want to make this personal, KateH, I invite you to contact me and we can discuss this offline.  There is no room for personal attacks out here IE calling people idiots and the like.  I fully repect your opinions on the subject though I don't really agree with them.  All I can ask for in a public forum is the same consideration.  If you cannot offer that minimal request, then take it to my email and we'll discuss offline.

Thanks and have a great day!

It is reasonable that I wouldn't know how to spell pedigree.  I am a mutt guy, and I always spell that right.  Seriously, I have no issue with opinions, but KateH, the whole of  your previous post was 100% personal.  It refered to me, not my opinion or merits there of.  I just thought I would point that out.

The word is spelled 'pedigree.'  And if anyone wants to read his dictum on not letting people have the dog they want when there's some dog at a shelter or rescue, just go back to the post about "Oops, I did it again..." about the cat Dr. K. took care of for its clueless owners.  Draw your own conclusions about EAB's words.

As I read on, it seems that folks just keep putting words in my mouth.  No one is forcing someone to obtain any less than the dog of their dreams.  I never suggested getting an unhealthy beagle when one wants a pedegree black lab or poodle.   Furthermore, if an animal is proven to have health or behavior problems no one shoudl be forced into anything.

Again, please read my words.  There are those that want a pedegree for a companion.  I am ok with that, no worries, but they are at the pound right next to the itsa dogs I prefer.  There are well mannered pedegree of the desired breed at the pound getting ready to be put under, and it has good behavior and health.  Don't make the assumption that all dogs at the pound are either the product of ill bred pedegrees or mutts as it's simply not true.

I say all of the above to allow as much leaway as one can with pedegrees.  It seems that some would like to state my opinion.  Might be easier if I put it into words.  Breeds as they are stated are of Man's world, not natures.  Natural dogs have no breed.  Some retrieve, some hunt, some swim, but there was no specified "breeds" until man started mucking around with genetics and such.  In fact, research shows that the most intense breeding has taken place just over the last couple hundred years.  My opinion is that a "good full bred pedegree" is only marginally better than one from the puppy mill as both are an inbreeding of a desired set of traits.  The unfortunate side effect of that is behavior and health issues.  My dog is part Greyhound.  Greyhounds cannot be left off leash because they have a singular purpose of chasing anything in sight, but mine does not have that drive.  Same goes for our dog's ability to retrieve, hunt, and defend.  She is a "jack of most all trades, but master of none."  In addition, her behavior is more stable than most pedegrees and her hybrid vigor will allow her to most probably live a longer life with less health issues."

My opinion?  For the general everyday person that wants a companion, a pedegree is not only not a requirement, I honestly feel it's a bad choice.  The majority of dog fanatics do not share my opinion, and I respect  that.

There.  Now you have my opinion.

What was in the coffee yesterday and today?  Feisty comments all around.  : )

Carissa, you and I actually agree.  It seems to me that any responsible breeder shouldn't have any issue with the regulatory suggestions I put forth.  So why the fuss?  Again, one cannot say "I already drive 55MPH, so the speed limit signs do not apply to ME."  It's illogical, correct?  You are saying that responsible breeders are already doing the things that I suggest.  That may be, and that's great.  Then putting forth regulation mandating  such wouldn't be a problem.

Thanks for your support.

Just what is the loophole that allows these bastard spammers to screw up the comments thread - in this and previous posts.  Go ahead, make the captcha feature harder, or identify the computer they're coming from and block them, whatever it takes, please!

Sadly, Carissa, the problem with EAB is that he doesn't care that there are good, ethical breeders out there.  He thinks that no one should be allowed to get a special dog (breed) from a good, ethical breeder, as long as there's a dog (of any kind) at a shelter.  The person who wants a dog, in his world, should only be allowed to get it from a shelter or a rescue, and the fact that it might have congenital health problems, or may have a temperment problem (congenital or acquired), is just something they should work through, because that dog deserves a home.  He would rather force someone to pick a dog they don't know much about, and live with whatever issues arise, than to select from a good breeder, who has done health testing and does something with the parent dogs to show that they are worth being bred.  And even if someone wanted a rare breed,  one whose numbers in rescue are small, well, too bad, they should change their mind about what they want, 'cause there's a dog in a shelter, somewhere, who needs a home. 

While it would be great if every shelter/rescue could place their dogs with the right home for them, there are many times when the home wants something other than what is immediately available.  I, myself, would love to one day have the Saluki of my dreams.  Because getting one is more difficult than just going to the nearest shelter - where I guarantee there are none - he thinks I should pick something else, or maybe go across the country to find a Saluki, who might not be the age, sex, or (god forbid) the color I want, because it's in a rescue, instead of getting one from a good, ethical breeder closer to me.  I'm really glad he's not in charge of the world.

Yikes... bad post timing... mine got garbled in with the spammer. :(

"I don't care if you are the greatest breeder of a pedegree "whowhatits", if "Petfinder" shows that our society already has an inordinate number of the breed avaiable, then controls and regulation will be applied to the breeders of the given breed."

What type of regulation? Responsible breeders aren't profitting from their litters -- only Backyard Breeders and Puppy Mills are because they are churning out enough litters a year and are also not doing things like proving the stock or doing any type of health testing. Adding a fee won't put those types out of business. Possibly restricting number of litters per year would. We cannot eliminate responsible breeders who are doing health testing and carefully choosing breeding stock, unless we want to see health issues in purebreds get even worse.

"A breeder or shelter is responsible for the animal when adopted or bought. In other words, they should be part of the process of keeping an eye on the animal and ensuring it is getting proper care."

Any breeder worth their salt keeps tabs on ALL litters produced and will have written into their contract that the dog MUST be returned to them if the purchaser can no longer care for the dog. Truly ethical and responsible breeders are not the ones to blame for dogs overflowing in shelters... Backyard Breeders like Joe Schmo down the street who thinks Floofy and Fluffy need to make puppies to have a complete life are.

These are just some things to think about when discussing this topic -- to me it's very important to remember to not lump all types of breeders into one category. There ARE still ethical breeders out there whose goals are to improve the health of their selected breed, and there ARE ethical breeders out there who are also simultaneously active in rescue work. They shouldn't be punished alongside the main perpetrators -- Joe Schmo listing his litters in the Classifieds and the large scale puppy mill/broker operations.

Sorry for being off-topic!

I learn lots of new stuff here ! regard

EAB

I live in your dreamworld too ;)  Pretty hard to regulate breeding when we can't even enforce the leash laws...

VMDiva

You must live in BC? Yes- Sarah gets me everytime. I also worked at a high volume SPCA here in BC and know how many puppies and kittens die everyday...

One of my biggest issues are the "no money" pyometras

LOL my mom was one!!!  She refused to spay our family dog because she was afraid she would get fat.  The dog was never bred but at 8 years old, as I predicted, she developed a pyo!  We scrounged the money and the dog got surgery but my mom was very surprised at both the disease and the cost.  I guess she thought I was just part of the 'vet conspiracy' and that I had spent two years and $20000 learning how to hold puppies and kittens!

Bottom line is, I believe, altering should be on the seller or provider of the animal, as in have the procedure bought and paid for and, if the time is right, performed prior to the selling of the animal.  If the procedure is not performed at time of purchase or transfer to new owner, the new owner will sign a receipt that custody of the animal is contingent on the procedure being performed.

And as I posted in a previous subject, breeders should be regulated much like hunting is, and for the same reason:  For control of the animal population.  I don't care if you are the greatest breeder of a pedegree "whowhatits", if "Petfinder" shows that our society already has an inordinate number of the breed avaiable, then controls and regulation will be applied to the breeders of the given breed.  No one is above the pet population problem, and no pedegree's life is more important than the most neglected mutt at the local pound.

One more thing.   A breeder or shelter is responsible for the animal when adopted or bought.  In other words, they should be part of the process of keeping an eye on the animal and ensuring it is getting proper care.  Of course, this is unrealistic when the pet population is out of control.  Step 1 is to implement my pet population reduction system noted in teh second paragraph, and then, as I say, use the step in this paragraph to enhance the health and well being of our now managable pet population.

Of course, I don't need anyone telling me I live in a dreamworld.  I know it'll never happen however, that doesn't make it a bad idea.

Meghan RAHT and Stefani: Both excellent replies. Equally well articulated.

One of my biggest issues are the "no money" pyometras that come in to the practice. Dog was never spayed 10 years ago despite recommendation, hasn't been to the vet for 6 years. Suddenly it is PU/PD, anorexic, and has vaginal discharge. When you discuss surgery with the owner, owner complains about the high cost of a "spay". I will politely but firmly explain that this is in NO WAY a simple spay and that their dog may die despite surgery. What I cannot bring myself to say (someday it may slip if the mood strikes me) is that a "simple spay" 10 years ago would have cost them a 1/10th of what this surgery will cost them now and that, with all those years of neglect and failure to provide veterinary care, they saved 6 years worth of cash they can now put toward correcting a condition that should have never occured in the first place. *sighs*

Every single one of my female puppy and kitten visits get the spay discussion at their last vaccination appointment. I discuss pyometras, unwanted pregnancies and the cost of raising a litter, mammary tumors, uterine tumors, and estrus cycles. I even recommend spaying following breeding (if I can't talk the average backyard breeder out of it). An article in USA Today from 1/13/10 addresses the pet sterilization issues facing the US. Despite advocacy to have pets spayed or neutered in a push to curb pet overpopulation, a staggering number of animals aquired last year have NOT gone under the knife! Granted, some animals were too young for surgery at the time of the survery but 24% of respondants who hadn't altered their pets stated they "hadn't gotten around to it" while another 14% stated they "didn't feel it was necessary." Where are we failing as a profession? How do we educate owners more? And isn't that horrible heart wrenching Sarah McLachlan commerical enough to make you schedule surgery immediately?

Sometimes I wonder why I put myself through such strife.

Meghan, I pass my appreciation to you on two scores:

1.  Saying that you have previously reported veterinary quality issues and left places of employment because you did not want to be a part of bad medicine and it bothered you to see it.

2.  Frustration at clients who see only the price. 

Because being proactive about veterinary quality has become very important to me, I get very agitated when I see people placing low price high on their list of priorities.  I know some people have extremely limited budgets, but I get the feeling that those people aren't necessarily always the ones who question why something costs such and such.  Overheard such a call at my vets recently with a client questioning why a spay there is hundreds more than the "discount low-cost spay" elsewhere.  The receptionist had to deal with me prompting him from the sidelines because I don't think he was prepared but I wanted to yell at those clients myself.

But . . .

In this particular case, as culpable as the owners are for the condition of the dog, I don't have enough information to say that the first vet treated it properly.

If two parents are drunk and driving their car, wreck it and their child in the backseat is critically injured, taken to the hospital and dies . . . .

Ranting at those parents is totally justified.

But if you also learn that the hospital left her in the gurney in the hall for a long time when she was in shock and internal bleeding, or otherwise did not handle the daughter properly, who MIGHT MIGHT (we'll never know) have lived had they handled it properly . . .

Well, we know what happens then.  Because the legal system is different for humans.  And I would have no beef with a lawsuit in such a case, because the absolute criminal irresponsibility of the parents doesn't negate a violation of professional standards on the part of the hospital.  Separate issues.

That is a hypothetical, I am not saying the analogy applies here -- just that there is not enough info to determine whether or not it does. 

If I unleash on someone I just blame it on that time of the month....just kidding. 

See these folks all the time and do my best to try and educate them....but what if they still don't believe you?? 

Had a situation...why is it always a pregnant animal??  They said in labor for an hour but puppy's legs were hanging out and were cold, floppy and starting to get mushy......I told them the puppy was dead - they thought they could still feel a heartbeat (on the puppy) through the mom's stomach.....(eyebrow raise here)  Anyway took the dog to surgery, spayed, she lived and did fine, puppy was still dead and they got PISSED off.  I don't even know how to respond at that point.  I try, everyday I try and somedays I win and somedays I lose but I get up and try again. 

Because there will always be more

I do consult Dr Google myself sometimes, just gotta get the info from a reliable source. Unfortunately some folks accept everything on the internet as gospel regardless of who put it there.  I think maybe we all agree that some people should not have pets, going further, maybe some people should not have computers either!   I love freedom of speech! never want to stifle anyone, I do hope you folks that are on a mission can help clean up the bad apples in our profession ($30 neuter done with Xylazine gets my goat as well), Google webpage "Beware of Dr Cheapvet" I could not have said it any better than that!

jake, just wanted you to know that your post was honest, simple, and direct and not wasted or lost. Thanks.

If the doc's motive today was to get people's feather's ruffled, she sure did it today.  I haven't seen this much compation and mutual respect since the movie Full Metal Jacket...WOW!

would you ever stop blamingthe particular doctor???

I would hold that particular doctor responsible for the rest of my days and I would do my darndest to see that they never practiced again.  I would NOT however hold every OTHER doctor responsible for the actions of one.  I would not seek good doctors out on the internet and flog my childs story over and over and over again on their blog until everyone was, quite frankly, sick of hearing it. 

 Vets make mistakes too and they need to take responsibility for their actions

See above.  Why does Dr. Khuly need to take responsibility for the mistakes of every bad seed in her proffession?  You see, you are talking to the wrong people.  All of the Veterinarians, Techs and Vet Staff that bear the brunt of your on-line anger know that there are Veterinary offices out there with very poor practices.  In many cases we have agonized over what we have seen, we have reported incidents, we have steered clients away, and we have abandoned our jobs because we didn't want to be a part of "bad medicine".

I educate clients all the time and try to defend my practices "high prices".  Many (including some of you) clients only see the nice building and assume we are just out for profit.  I talk to them until I am blue in the face about the importance of IV fluids, monitoring, trained staff etc... but many choose to go to the guy down the street that'll neuter their dog for $30 (probably using xylazine and some 15 year old assistant). 

If you really wanted to make a difference for pets and their people you would focus your efforts on educating the general public about quality veterinary care.  You might share your stories to heighten awareness regarding the fact that there are many ways to spay a cat and help people to choose the safest options. 

Getting online and lashing out at Dr. Khuly accomplishes very little.  You may not realize this but she is on your side!  Her blog is the most honest look inside an animal hospital that you are going to get.  She even, god forbid, admitted to being human and losing her temper!  You know how you feel about your own pets suffering, now imagine that you see 2-3 animals everyday suffering because of the ignorance of their owners.  It wears on a person.  And once and awhile, in the face of not only ignorance but deflection of blame, you just have to let the truth out.

Complain all you want.

1. Nothing will improve for veterinary standards of care until insurance is involved (which also means you'll stop declining the standard of care when offered).

2. Nothing will improve in competency of animal guardians until taxes are levied for such guardianship (and appropriately weighted increases for intact animals and breeding rights).

Simple macroeconomics.

A guilt trip followed by a blog post simply is not sufficient to effect social change.  Michael Vicks are everywhere - only a few are rich/popular enough to make an example.  The idiots who visited Dr. K today were legally protected to torture their dog.

KateH:

"And wondering why you aren't getting an answer from Dr. K.'s colleagues, is just ...funny, for reasons that are obvious to rational people. A group you cannot be numbered among, of course."

 Oh, some of them will give me an answer under oath--no doubt about that!

KateH:

I was referring to the "Cat Guardian's" last two words and I only addressed them to you--"GET HELP"  Sorry, about that, I should be more clear--you got me on this one!

Fotini, she wasn't referring to me...again, you're not paying attention.

Uh, Cat Guardian, did you even look at the site before you asked who "write" it?  To borrow a line, "Here's your sign."

@KateH

Concur with "Cat Guardian" 

Hobson, Why do you think anyone would be angry at any vet? Think about it. Does the truth hurt? I don't blame all vets, but I don't trust any vet blindly after what happened to my beloved dog.  Veterinarians are human and do make mistakes, but it seems as if those can't or won't take responsibility for their actions. I know personaly 15 people that have had a pet harmed or killed because of actions backed by lies or a cover up to avoid the truth by veterinarians.  We only want to be heard and stop this from happening. I am not attacking ALL veterinarians just the ones that need to be exposed. I call my dogs death "THE SILENT CRIME". The victims can't speak and their owners aren't heard.  I only want to be heard and not ignored. I am devastated by the needless loss of my dog. Do you think we should just hide away in a dark corner and let this continue? Would you if your pet had died as my dog did, or any other pet owner? But we are ALWAYS  ridiculed and stated that we are attacking the vet. We are merly describing some vets. It seems as if we are attacked for telling the truth. It seems so guilty when we are  accused of attacking a vet. Try listining to these stories instead of attacking a pet owner, especially when they have suffered a great loss.  If any of these veterinarian's on this blog really cared they would want to hear these stories and talk to their colleages. We only want to stop this from happening and save our pets.  I live everyday with the thought that I handed over my dog to a person who breached my trust and contract when my dog was euthanized instead of being neutered. Not all pet owners are ignorant you see, I thought I was doing the responsible thing in neutering my pet, it turned out to be not the case, and my worse nightmare. Also don't we the public, pet owners, aren't we your livelyhood???  Ignorant or not?  

I think, even with the "kick, clueless, kill" that the ABOVE poster seems to have singled out for your review - what you said to them was kind as most people would be. I think you let them off easy!

Whats sad is, these are the type of people that probably walked out of there like "well, want to go play with the puppies at the pet store to feel better" and just go get another one.

I think you are a phenomenal vet for letting them know this unnecessary death was, and should, be on their heads... and I suppose I would hope - their hearts.

Oooh, is that supposed to mean something, Fotini?  If you were standing right in front of me, I'd call you an idiot. 

What Elizabeth and I were pointing out is that you blame Dr. Khuly, and all other vets, for whatever happened to your dog. What you were saying "some vets" to was in reply to EAB saying that having a pet is not a God-given right.  And wondering why you aren't getting an answer from Dr. K.'s colleagues, is just ...funny, for reasons that are obvious to rational people.  A group you cannot be numbered among, of course.

Elizabeth - From Nova Scotia:

If you lost your child to misdiagnosis, would you ever stop blaming the particular doctor???  That's right--that dog was my first companion and like a child to me!  But you all seem to miss the point:  It's unethical for vets to always shift the blame to guardians.  Just like vets, not all people with companions are irresponsible for their companions' well being!

I am not bashing ALL vets (read my comment above).  I only refer to "some" vets.

 KateH:  Fortunately,we have the Atlantic Ocean between us!

What is most disturbing to me about this "article" here is the tone and verbiage used:

"kick him in the head"

"clueless clients"

"kill them with kindness"

"demons within"

"But then, my temper got the better of me"

 "display of righteous indignation"

I am not sure who write this but I assume it was a vet. Very unprofessional wording for something with education. Very scary look at the mind of a vet, for the general public. These words reflect the writers thought process and view of the world: angry, judgemental, disturbed." GET HELP!

Help me understand why my dog died suddenly at the veterinarian's office when I took him to be neutered. My dog ,Mutley a young healthy dog,(confirmed on a necropsy report) was taken into a clinic for a neuter surgery, he was given a drug off label called Xylazine 100mg/ml. labeled for cattle & horses. The drug manufacturer stated NOT recommended for cats & dogs.  My dog vomited, collasped and died of cardiac arrest. I was then lied to by the vet. He stated he did nothing wrong. NO compassion what so ever. These things happen, he said.  How ,to a dog who was strong, healthy and my best friend? I gave no informed consent to use such a drug. I signed a surgical waiver, NO SURGERY ever occurred. I was charged and refused any compensation. It is not a money issue, it is a moral issue.  My dog was bleeding when I put him on the table. I have a FOIA report that states other dogs that were overdosed were bleeding as well from the rectum. Why did the vet not file an ADE report, WHy did he refuse to ever talk to me again? Can you explain this? Vets make mistakes too and they need to take responsibility for their actions. I have experienced severe depression and my life is not the same and the trust in veterinary care is gone because of this. Why can't veterinarian's tell the truth to their clients? I miss my dog everyday and will never forget what they did to him. They even have the wrong color of my dog on his medical record.. Can you explain this???

Fotini:

When are you going to stop blaming EVERY Vet for what happened.. 

I know I am wasting my time asking but blaming every vet for what happened is not even rational.

Dr. Hobson, I would not discredit Dr. Google completely quite yet. Not all advice he (or she?) offers is inappropriate. Some legitimate veterinary texts (or parts thereof) can be found online. Advice of good and ethical veterinarians on a wide range of topics can also be found online: from overvaccination to nutrition. The ones that immediately come to mind are Dr. Pierson (www.catinfo.org) and Dr. Rogers (www.critteradvocacy.org); there are many others.

Of course, as any tool, in the hands of a certifiable moron, Dr. Google's advice can be misused and lead to danger, as it did in this sad case. However, there are cases of a different kind. For example, when my pet's disease was missed on an X-ray by two vets, I was the one who found on the Internet the information alerting me (based on the symptoms) that the condition may just require emergency intervention. It turns out it did, which the two vets failed to realize. Unfortunately, my Internet research wasn't timely enough. I wish I had done it sooner, but the blind trust of vets' expertise I had at the time lulled me into believing that my pet was in good hands. Never again, and the Internet will be one of the sources I find information on my pets' care. I will not use the Internet in lieu of advice, but I will use it as a tool for further inquiry, possibly a second opinion with a different vet. One of the vets in question, by the way, received a formal letter of censure from the state board, so it turned out that the information I found on the Internet was more correct than the vet's assessment of my pet's symptoms. So Dr. Google might not be wrong every time. It all depends on who consults him (her?).

Two of the people I know in the falconry comunity come to mind.  One is always getting a new bird because the last one died, or didn't work out, or he didn't 'like' the one he had.  The bottom line is he is a shoddy falconer who has more drive than knowlage and just keeps trying without learning.  The other is one of the best falconers I know and one of the most open with his knowlage and experience people I know.  His hawks, every one of them are excelent hunters and impecabaly trained.  The good falconer is constand and unhesitant in his help and advise to the poor one.  I called him on this once as I was fed up with the bad falconer and felt we as a comunity should shun him.  He said the best thing he can do for all of this falconer's future birds ther would be more as he is very gung ho) is to offer all the help he can and hope the other 'gets' it.  It gave me pause.  This man is more wise and patient than I am and I hope I can learn the lesson. . .

KateH: Exactly! Which is why the word "necropsy" should not have been part of the answer.

And to the case above: Do we know why the dog was discharged? Do we know what the owner's were told? Were they informed of the perotinitis and of impending death? (before it got dumped in Dr. K's lap)

Stefani, you know that antibiotics don't cause an immediate reversal and cure of an infection.  Dead puppies, causing sepsis, yes, in 24 hours, decreasing the mother's immune system, even after a c-section of a sick dog, can't be 'fixed' with antibiotics.

Oh, and the person who wrote in to Dr. K. in the prior case you cite, was not her client.  Dr. K. didn't even have the records (whether a mess or not), nor did she see the x-ray.  These cases are not alike and Dr. K. isn't applying a double standard.

I am asking you to consider that it's possible you have a double standard going on here.

When your client had a dog who died after ingesting (was it a chicken bone?) that was not caught on an x-ray, your reply to the questioner was that without the scientific evidence of a necropsy one could not state whether or not the bone caused the death. 

Yet, in this case, you seem certain that the infection in this dog is primarily the fault of the owners, although there is no info shared about whether or not the clinician *whose records were a mess * may have performed the c-section in a less-than-sterile environment, failed to handle the dog properly post op, failed to give appropriate antibiotics, or maybe even left a sponge in.

I'm not saying he did any of those things.  I'm just saying that the fact of the owners irresponsibility doesn't tell you what the exact cause of the peritonitis is, or whether or not the prior vet gave the right drugs (antibiotics? you tell me) to a dog whose pups had been dead so long inside her -- in other words, if that alone could have set her up for this infection, did he properly prophalactically treat for that?

I don't blame you for being frustrated at people like these, but at the same time, boneheadedness on the laypersons part doesn't mean that they have no right to be upset if the prior vets actions contributed to the death of their dog.  Or if they think or suspect as much.

Speech? Sure.  Blame laying? mmm, are you applying the same rigorous proof standard here that you did in the bone case?

Hobson, where the heck have you been?? I was wondering if you stopped reading?? Good to 'see' you.

Sometimes, and I have found this out myself, a single sentence hits a nerve. I believe this subject is about "ignorance" and "shoddy records" and a desperate couple (no matter what fault they hold or don't) trying to right a wrong with $$$ and save their pet. If they were puppymillers-or worse, they would have taken care of everything w/o a vet.

A close to same situation happened to someone I knew & saw everyday. I was so upset , I could barely continue speaking to her. It was ignorance, sad but true, and not deliberate-nor cheap-nor disregarded as unimportant.

If someone was a bit more astute and slipped on the shoes of an upset person (with GOOD reason), calling someone ignorant or an "idiot" is not helpful and says more about the speaker.

What was the blog the other day? The healthy dog that just happen to need an x-ray...?

Fotini, just as I have stated previously many times, has received excellent vet care for YEARS prior and continues to receive excellent care at a huge travelling distance.

I have only come to learn, through professional therapy, that in this situation, as a victim, that anger is the road to empowerment and recovery. I happen to be a year further along.

So while others might feel good to bash, think about whether you would like to give up a serious , if not permanent "chunk" of your lives.

Hobson: Calling some of these treatments "shoddy care" is outright 'kind' and diminishes what really happened, I feel that you feel that words need to be chosen carefully.

We (collectively) have done our homework and sadly live with not just our personal sadness, but the many examples out there of various levels of "shoddy care"

off my soapbox--

Barbara's comments---

There are times we won't listen to kind words of advice and suggestion. It takes harsh words fueled with passion to really 'get the message' through. And this couple really needed to get the message that they had put the dog in this deadly position. Here's hoping their other dog will fare much better and they'll research for advice rather than vindication.

As for "consulting with Dr. Google," yes, people need to be selective in the information obtained, but there is a lot of good, very useful information that can be obtained from the internet. It can't be dissmissed out-of-hand as something to sneer at.

Anna, you hit it on the nose:  "Ignorance does not not absolve you of responsibility".

Sugarcoating is almost always a disservice, IMO.  Ignorance does not absolve you of responsibility.  Clients like these need to be told simply and directly that their actions (or inactions) led to the current situation, even if the statement is prefaced with "I understand that you weren't aware of this at the time...". 

I wish there were laws against breeding and selling companion animals for profit without a breeder's license.  I really think it would cut down on the number of pet owners who figure that letting their pet breed is no big deal...especially if they can sell the offspring.  I know it wouldn't dissuade everyone, but it'd be a start.

We had a similar situation at the clinic I work at last week.  A first-time client presented his papillon for "having a hard time getting a puppy out".  She had been laboring with that particular pup for almost 24 hours - it was partially out, clearly dead, and beginning to decay.  Our doctors couldn't remove the pup manually, and he was told to take her immediately to a 24-hr. clinic for emergency surgery.  I doubt she made it.  He was pretty much told that it was his fault - he needed to hear it, whether or not it hurt his feelings or pissed him off.

I love it when clients consult with Dr. Google!   I tell them that internet content is as reliable as hearing it at the grocery store, beauty shop or a bar.  May be true may be not.  Computer diagnosis is replacing the phone diagnosis.  I tell them to be leery of sites that are put up by someone with an axe to grind, or a Vet who does not have expert credentials, such as board certification..

I have had similar situations and I end up with a bloody mouth after biting my tongue.  I just try to help the dog and move on. Not worth the rise in blood pressure taking time off my life.  These people just don't get it.

Likewise Kate, it is no use yelling at the folks who use Dr K's blog to air their grievances against the Veterinary profession.  We have been through that many times before.  I try sympathize with their losses: some clearly did receive shoddy care, some just had difficult cases that turned out bad despite decent care.  I believe these folks carry their pain forever and just can't let go, or they can't let go of their anger and have to constantly lash out.    

Patricia, I certainly will grant you that there are some people that are ignorant.  They can be helped with some guidance.  Stupid people can be helped out with a bit of an arse chewing much like the Doc did.   Then there is, as my UK friends say, "Bloody Stupid."  For them, unfortunately, there is no hope!!!

<GRIN>

I have a rule that serves for many occasions. BE SOFT ON THE PEOPLE AND HARD ON THE PROBLEM.

What happened to the Maltese was horrible, but the people were in the right place, at the office of a veterinarian. The clients were both the people and the dog. Learning is always socially mediated. Who better to educate than a professional? Where better to learn than in an exchange between the client and vet in the office concerning a real problem?

It serves no purpose to be right and righteous. It serves no purpose to think that you know what people should have known. Shoulds just get in the way of an opportunity to serve and in this case the future needs of this couple and any animals they have or will have in the future.  The visit could have ended with a promise by the couple to visit a vet regularly in the future to learn to care for their pets.

'Not personally attacking you - just saying I neither want or need you to mediate between me and anyone else.  You haven't been here long enough to know about Fotini's habits.  As I said, I'm tired of her using Dr. K.'s forum to verbally slash at all vets - and since she's usually off topic when she does, the words I used to try and point her in the right direction were just fine.

KateH:  Now you have moved on to attacking me personall (Dad???  Really???)  My email is picklemilo@yahoo.com.  If you feel the need to personally attack me, please don't do it on Dr. K's forum.

Thanks, Dad, but she constantly blames every vet in the world for what happened to her dog - and dragging that into this comment thread is not something that should be left as her 'opinion.'

To KateH and Fotini - Opinions are wonderful and when conveyed with passion even better, but it could be that you both may be crossing the line into personal attacks.  Perhaps a bit of agreeing to disagreel and leaving it at that is in order?

Fotini - again, you're an idiot.  I am not too young to know that what happened to your dog had NOTHING to do with this case, this dog, these owners or these vets.  And, since it was obvious you weren't paying attention to the point of this case - those owners were NOT spending thousands of dollars to a vet.  I don't know where you get the idea that any guardian - ignorant or not - is paying me thousands of dollars for anything.  You just keep showing that you can't stay on topic.  The pebbly-skinned, mostly round items with a name that doesn't rhyme with anything - those are oranges.  The red, red-yellow, red-green, green or yellow items that have various round or round-ish shapes - those are apples.  Learn the difference, okay?

@ KateH

You sound too young and have ways to go to learn to accept constructive critisism. 

No comments about what happened to my dog from your colleagues though. . . 

And I refuse to use your abusive language towards a guardian who has been paying thousands of dollars to people like you!

I agree with your last paragrah.  Situations like this are an opportunity to educate, a chance to reduce the odds that history will repeat itself.  There's not necessarily anything wrong with what you did, you were well within your right to tell these people that they are responsible for their pet's condition, especially given their willingness to place all of the blame on a veterinarian.  But as you obviously know, people are often more receptive to the truth coated with a little bit of honey, makes it go down easier. 

I don't think you have anything to be ashamed of, your conduct was perfectly acceptable.  When dealing with people like this, I try to remember that the point of speaking to them is to change their behavior, not to make me feel better for having told them how stupid they are.  It doesn't always work :)

YOU were absolutely on top of things when you told the couple the truth!

Your compassion and love for our precious animals guides you each day through all of the challenges that you face.

May you continue to do the great things that you do!

P.S.  I have actually witnessed OUR vets here at home give out the same type of "constructive criticism"....so you are not alone!

Take care,

deb bresnahan

meridian, ms

Fotini, you need to piss off.  Neither Dr. K. nor the other vet was the one who caused the dog to 1) be purchased by an idiot and 2) given to another idiot.  Neither vet was responsible for 3) the idiot OWNERS picking up some other dog and 4) deciding to let the underage female 'marry' - and making her get pregnant.  Yep, I said 'making' because they did the same as parents who 'marry' their 13 yr old daughter to anyone, knowing that she will likely get pregnant and is too young for it.  Those parents are morally wrong and mentally deficient, just as this dog's owners were.  And, 5) the OWNERS didn't bother to notice anything changed about the female's shape, attitude, or health - because they (I'm 99.9% sure) didn't bother to take the dog(s) to a vet before the female was in distress - which 6) they didn't notice for at least a day.  NONE of that should be laid at the feet of the vets - and you're an idiot to say it should be.

You say that you were an ignorant guardian - which you may very well have been - but were you as ignorant as the owners in this example?  If you did the same things they did, then yes, it would be your fault.  I'm tired of these situations - which aren't the same - being held up as 'proof' that all vets are evil, trying only to cheat people out of money.  So, again, just piss off.

Fotini,

In this PARTICULAR SITUATION, exactly which vet was to blame?  The two vets involved were left cleaning up a giant mess created by the two owners.  The owners were uninformed yes, entirely to blame, and could have made better choices.  My anger would not be directed at their mistake. but the fact that they tried to lay blame with the person that tried to help them.  Their inability to accept responsibility for their own actions is a character flaw all too common in todays society. 

Having a day were you?

Welcome to the human race.

You can only do the best at any moment and the right response is always the one that catalyzes change or educates--whether or not it is done passionately (LOL) or not.

The hardest thing to come to grips with is the irresponsibility of others. Whether it is ignorance, financial, or otherwise--it is still difficult when you are powerless to implement change.

This is why compassion fatigue is a real factor in the animal profession.

So, do the best you can and move on.

Don't overthink it too much as it will make you crazy but your emotion? It will make you great.

@ EAB "Having a pet is not a God given right, folks!"

Oh, we know that! Tell it to some vets, to!

When are you going to stop blaming guardians and start blaming yourselves (vets) as well for such misfortunes???? Attacking people who help you make a comfortable living isn't the correct approach. I was an ignorant guardian, trusting my dog's vets (five of them ), but my trust made me pay dearly for my dog's misdiagnosis, misreatment, and death caused by these vets. . .

 Asproolee’s Story

Wanna get even more upset? Get this...these type of folks treat their children the very same way.

Yes, they do.  I go to people's homes.  Sometimes I'm sickened by the conditions I see.  It's horrifying when children or the elderly are given "care" by the same person responsible for whatever catastrophe I'm there to manage.  On one occasion the client called me under pressure from local humane law enforcement, to whom I was then required to give a report.  When I did, I mentioned there were children in the home, and I was concerned about their well-being.  I found out CPS was already well-aware and involved - a relief, but also terribly sad.

I really think that you did the right thing by telling them that.  Sometimes people just need to hear that they did something wrong and not their previous vet or the people that gave them bad advice on the internet.  So Kudos to you and Thank You for having the marbles to say what you feel. 

UGH. My husband always tells me I would have a seriously hard time being a vet because I get snarky with people like this and probably say worse than you did.

Forgot to comment on your conduct. Some folks can be "medicated" with a less evasive oral medication. Others require a full on enima or suppository delivered via a well placed boot in the arse, and doing that  verbally the way you did is perfectly acceptable.

Wanna get even more upset?  Get this...these type of folks treat their children the very same way.  Like I always say, it amazes me that one has to have a license to fish in this country but procreating, owning pets, and the like is treated as a God given right.  I think that you should be able to forbid people like this from ever owning a pet again.   The argument is that the shelters are already full, but aren't these animals products of bad owners?  These people get an amimal, be it from a puppy mill, shelter, reputable breeder, or off the streets, pay the freight, novelty wears off, they fail to take care of the animal or drop it off at a shelter.  You gotta think that if we regulated the animal breeding in this country, elliminated the bad owners and better regulated the animals and their care, wouldn't this stuff be minimized?

The bottom line is this:  Isn't the issue not that they did this, but that they'll do it again, and it's all perfectly legal?  Having a pet is not a God given right, folks!

No, I think you were correct with the initial approach. There's big difference between ignorance and stupidity. Ignorance should be dealt with more tact and caring. Stupidity, however, there is no cure for. Your time is far too valuable, I'm sure, to suffer fools. I don't put up with it, and niether should you. Any business you lose, will only benefit your sanity in the long run.

In this day and age of information, there is no excuse to be completely clueless about caring for a pet. My husband and I knew very little about cats when stray cat with kittens that wondered into our garage, but within 4 hours we knew how to feed and fatten up mama (she was rail thin), how to best house her babies and generally care for them. There are countless companion animal groups that are on the internet along with PetMD and other sources of informtion on pets of any kind. I have a really hard time with people who get a pet and don't bother to learn how to care for it.

I agree - people like these don't understand subtlety - you have to hit them between the eyes with a brick just to get their attention.  Your job is to take care of the animals first and sometimes that may mean saying things people don't want to hear - but need to.  I am sure you were not mean, just direct.

Sadly, as they say, "you can't fix stupid".

But so often, when you patiently and compassionately explain, they just ignore you and do whatever they're going to do anyway.  Which leads to the same neglect and death. 

If you're blunt, at least they don't have the excuse of pretending they didn't understand the full implications.