Sorry... I'm from the old school! I've been in sales, marketing, real estate, education, medicine, sports, and entertainment - AND there have always been 'big time' perks!

Nowadays, it's all in bad taste... if not illegal. It seems pretty stupid to me that a lot of people who can't handle the competition, scream, "Unfair!" I, personally, never let it influence me... unduly. It seemed that most of the people I knew, took it fairly light-heartedly.

Then we had to become 'politically correct' and 'liberated' and that ruined the whole thing for everyone!

You're absolutely right to take the position you have.

Let the whiners grab a 'bagged lunch'... I'm opting for a glass of wine at the lodge, while I listen to another 'CE' opportunity.

Dr. Patty Khuly, how do I contact you with a question, as your contact link wont work. I have a question for you concerning zyrtec. Thanks Ty
Sorry off subject

Sorry about the contact link. I'll have it fixed straightaway. Contact me at drkhuly@petmd.com.

What do you think about pharmacuitical and pet food companies offering free products/food to vet students? I'm a VM3 at ISU and there are always luncheons about products, product give aways, and reduced cost food. I always feel uneasy about those things and only accept the reduced cost dog food since the money I pay for it goes to scholarship funds for the school. I feel like they are preying on us in hopes to persuade us to use their products in the future.

Are they preying on you? Yes and no. In an ideal world, this would be a symbiotic relationship, not a predator-prey situation. But the reality is that they stand to lose a lot if their product isn't out in front of you at a very early stage. Which means they can seem pretty aggressive in their wooing of you. Their intentions are not nefarious, however. They simply want you to know who they are and take them seriously as a contender for your professional affections. But I urge you to continue to feel "uneasy." As long as you do I believe it means you'll be better able to put these products and their pitches in the right context.

Preying on you? Absolutely! Why else do clients have to walk past the "junk food aisle" in the vet's office? -- you know, those shelves with bags of "prescription foods" made with corn, pork fat and peanut hulls?

I always like to point med/vet students toward the "No Free Lunch" website when they ask about the ethics of accepting freebies from drug/food companies...

http://www.nofreelunch.org/faqs.htm

FWIW, my alma mater has stopped all drug company lunches and giveaways at the med school. I imagine the vet school won't be too far behind.

Dr. Khuly, from your posts, it's obvious that the critters' well-being is always your first concern. I cannot imagine that a nice dinner would sway you to suggest a medication or treatment that wasn't in the best interest of your patient.

CE is always a good thing. Dinner is nice. Perhaps you should go with the "bore-ability" factor. Is a nice dinner worth being bored to death for a couple of hours? (Not in my book)

Unless it's to present, a free trip seems like a bit much, but is it going to sway you to use that company's product?

Heck, I'm amazed that companies still cough up big dollar freebies.

Freebies AFTER you have determined that a product is good would be perfectly acceptable since it's more of a "thank you".

If it doesn't feel right, it probably isn't. You're on the right track.

Perhaps I should add something that I've learned from experience: Walk away from any freebie where you are pressured to sign on the dotted line along with the freebie. (Think hard-sell window salespeople. I'm not even polite when they start the hard-sell. They are summarily dismissed.)

My occasional perusal of Fully Vetted is determined, primarily, by subject matter and not by your roguish writing style (although, I admit to enjoying it). But I have read frequently enough to opine that you use the FV forum to air your morality dance to your readership far too often. Whether it’s $2 / $4 eggs or gifts from the vet industry to practitioners, you’re going to make sure your fandom knows you’re always taking the moral highroad.

You write, “Yet it's ethically questionable for a professional to accept all but the least consequential of gifts.” Why is this form of gift giving questionable to you? When (1) the common good is at issue (even in the slightest), and (2) if the intent of the bestower is to influence the bestowed to be more favorable toward his/her (*hh) product or service, then this intent alone determines morality and not you. When is a gift given under these circumstances, and this is not the intent?

So, a $100 gift certificate for you and your boyfriend at your favorite restaurant is in the palest gray area for you? You also write, “If the gift risks swaying professional opinion, accepting it raises ethical issues.” Under this guideline, you can stand behind your ethical compass and consistently claim, “There is no risk with me, no influence will ever be accepted and you can park the Mercedes right here.”

Regarding daily-blog gifts, they can easily be screened for usefulness and safety and distributed to local animal rescue organizations.

Lastly, you write, “Because there's a line there somewhere, and I feel it's hovering dangerously close any time I get to feeling really tempted.” Of course, there’s a line somewhere. It’s where the black meets the white.

Obviously, anyone who is in a position to be influenced toward an unethical end has to be hh own judge. But please, stop wearing the morality badge as if you were the “ethics sheriff” for all of us.

* Since no one, to my knowledge, has resolved this “gender-pronoun” issue, I’m designating, forever and ever, “hh” to be the grammatical equivalent of his/her (what a collective time saver). By the way, why isn’t it her/his?

Please don’t speak *for all of us*. At least Dr. K. has a conscience to question the morality of gifting to begin with. I’m sure somewhere along the way you’ve been the culprit, too. What about that coupon for 50% off, or the buy one-get one free, or the raffle for a year’s worth of goodies? It’s all to promote products, it’s the way business is conducted.

The Mercedes in the drive way is such an exaggeration…..

Amen! :)

Oh and may I also add - It's Dr K's blog and she can write about whatever she darn well chooses.........

KC

I take exception to the notion that I'm always up on a moral high horse, as you imply. What I hope to convey is that too often that moral high road you speak of is a moving target and to showcase where these minefields lie within purr profession. After all, there are plenty of posts where I'm roundly bashed for my ethical choices. You might have just missed them.

Yeah, the gender pronoun thing gets under my skin sometimes, too. Thing is, I do like the sound of his/her but I will start to do the fifty-fifty thing. I've also liked s/he and I stopped using it. I'll fo back to that. Thanks for the nudge.

Here is my thought:

Accept the gift. Regardless(you might be "robbing someone of a blessing" a friend used to tell me) of whatever it is.

If you don't feel comfortable using that gift(IE, gift card for dinner on the town.) then donate it to a local breed rescue/non-breed specific rescue to be raffled off, or donate it someone(Maybe an employee who is having a tough time)(or a client who is disabled and on disability) who would/could use/appreciate it.

That way, you offend no one, and it helps someone else.

While I am not a fan of Science Diet, when I work as a tech, I take advantage of the free food that they give. I then donate that food to a guide dog handler, or service dog handler that would not otherwise be able to feed their dog.

If they don't feed that food, well, they can always, if they opt, take it to petco and swap for what they do feed.

Also, while on that subject....>VETS: I encourage you, if you have assistance dogs/guide dogs that come into your practice, that you ask your drug reps to donate Heartworm prevention, flea tick prevention, shots, etc....While the IAADP(International Association of assistance dog partners) has that included in their memberships, some on low income/food stamps/disability, can't always afford those expenses for their expensive and highly trained assistance dogs. Some orgs provide that for the dogs that they produce, others cannot, due to resources.

Just a few thoughts

This is has been going on, for a very long time, Heck why not, But it is up to you, if you want to push it, on your patients. Most of us, are checking-out medications. That our Doctors give us or our Pet Kids. Same with the food....so enjoy

Entirely too much "coziness" between medical/vet practitioners and industry. Have seen a friend's doctor precribe a diet for obese people to someone who needed to lose 10 lbs (food needed to be purchased from specific company). Said doctor also doing commercials for a stop smoking medication. Too blatant for me.

Companies aren't giving this stuff away for free. Just like political campaign donations, they expect something in return. Glad you have drawn a line in the sand.

@tpschmitt1 - I get your drift and am always relieved when someone posts on here with the intent to drive discussion rather than just writing suck-up comments.

One must keep in mind that blogs with advertising are marketing vehicles. Therefore they must acquire and retain eyeballs. So, provocative blog stories are almost essential, otherwise people will be bored, move on and it'll be difficult to get advertisers.

And I will say that at least she does put it out there. It's amazing how many people aren't aware of all of 'influencing' that goes on the human and animal medical fields.

DR KHULY - a question: do the manufacturers of ANY products/drugs that veterinarians use provide cash kickbacks, gifts or anything of value based on the amount of their products sold or for switching to their brand, etc?

Kickbacks are illegal so that cash or in-kind gifts are a big no-no. vertical integration is not. That means that a specialist can own a general practice that feeds her/his services or a rehab center fed by her/his surgical practice. Does that clarify things or just muddy them more?

"Kickbacks are illegal" -- let me ask: by federal law? Because if not, then one would have to ask if the laws have been checked in each state? Are there even many federal laws governing animal matters?

I do not know about products, etc. but, let me assure you that I live in a state whereby there is NO LAW (or even, State Vet Board Rule) prohibiting vets from paying other vets kickbacks. Meaning, your primary vet can recommend you take your pet to a specialty vet, get paid for having done so and thereby have an incentive to support whatever the specialist recommends. Fellow readers, this is not what you want! It's called: conflict of interest.

And it's an easy argument that you also don't want what Dr K mentions of there being no prohibitions about a vet having an ownership stake in a general practice as well as a specialty practice and, hey, maybe the testing lab used and/or the food company whose products are used and sold by the practice. Again, conflict of interest. Not pretty.