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Dr. Coates is a veterinarian based in the other “Sunshine State” – that's Colorado to the rest of you – where she lives and plays with a varied range of animals. She shares her professional and personal experiences, Monday through Friday, here on petMD's blog, the Fully Vetted. Log in for your daily dose of her insight and wisdom.

 

Veterinarians vs. Pediatricians on Vaccines

April 22, 2010 / (17) comments


Last Friday’s Huffington Post featured an article I couldn’t help but devour with relish. In it, Dr. Sherri Tenpenny posits the following impressive comparison: Veterinarians are more responsive to vaccination concerns than pediatricians.


It’s a motion I’ll readily second. Physicians seem far less willing to consider immunizations optional. They’re more adamant about its benefits and more stridently supportive of the science that now stingingly refutes most autism claims and many other once-supposed vaccine-related side effects.


Which may be why, as Dr. Tenpenny explains, child care physicians are loath to let you walk out the door without a vax. Consider this illustrative point she makes:


According to a 2005 survey of the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP), when faced with parents who refuse immunization, pediatricians reported that they always (4.8 percent) or at least sometimes (18.1 percent) tell parents that they will no longer serve as the child's physician. Pet owners, on the other hand, have latitude to discuss their vaccination concerns. In many cases, refusing a vaccination has the full support of their vet.


It’s not that physicians don’t acknowledge the downside of vaccination the way veterinarians do. Both professions well know there’s always a risk to the individual. We also understand that the protection of the population at large is the wider goal. Disease prevention for individuals who receive vaccines is critical, of course, but less so when it comes to vaccine requirements (for public schools, for example). There’s no disparity between professions on this score.


Nor does the cynics’ wisdom hold on this one: Because physicians make little (if any) money when they vaccinate, it’s hard to accuse them of holding firm to their vaccinating ways for financial reasons. In fact, physicians seldom have much of an income-related incentive to vaccinate. Given low reimbursement rates on immunizations, and the inordinate amounts of time required to educate parents and patients on this issue, most docs take a loss on giving vaccines.


Not so with veterinarians. We take a loss when you decline vaccines, if only because, historically, it’s been a big driver of annual visits. So while we’re happy to cave to your vaccine whims, we tend to do so more because we know that:


1. Your pet has already received vaccines that in many cases are effective over a much longer period of time than the manufacturer can prove. This fact can be illustrated in part by a simple test  — when we draw blood for an antibody "titer" to demonstrate significant antibody levels at the time of scheduled revaccination.


2. Your pet may not be exposed to a wide variety of other members of his or her species (if any). In these cases, vaccination can safely be waived. The only issue, infection-wise, has to do with possible loss (of your pet), the issue of rabies (it's hard to prove your pet doesn't have rabies when she bites the vet staff or a household visitor) and accidental exposure to other animals.


3. We need to keep you happy to retain you as a client. I suspect that the more competitive nature of retail, fee-for-service veterinary medicine is at least partially responsible for what Dr. Tenpenny calls, the "latitude" pet owners have to comfortably voice their concerns over vaccination. Remember, veterinary clients are paying us at the point of service, not through a third party (i.e, health insurance). This, too, influences how likely we are to value you as a customer.


4. When our patients come down with illnesses they could easily have been vaccinated against, the legal liability of the veterinary practice is in no way comparable to what a human provider would face. Consider a toddler with a nasty, preventable disease. What would the legal repercussions be for a doc who consented, tacitly or otherwise, to this child’s lack of vaccinations? Need I say more?


I hate to say it, but while I agree that my profession is more responsive to vaccination concerns, the above reasons clearly explain why. Not all of it has to do with money and self-interest. Obviously, our willingness to listen to our clients and take the time to individualize our medical approach — to vaccines or anything else — speaks to something that works very well in veterinary medicine.


Sure, the profit motive helps, but I’d like to think there’s more at work here. Despite my reservations and caveats, in the end I’m with Dr. Tenpenny on this one:


If animal doctors can work with owners to individualize vaccination schedules, to avoid over-vaccinating though vaccine titers, and to encourage participatory care, human doctors need to start doing the same. Parents need to demand care that is as good for their children as it is for their pets.


Overstated, perhaps (especially with respect to the reliance on titers), but it’s to the point. One size does not fit all, whether we’re talking human medicine or veterinary medicine.

 

 

Dr. Patty Khuly

 

 

Art of the day: "Cat Vs. Dog Part 1" by David Van Oost

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COMMENTS (17)
1
Good post!
by on 04/22/2010 09:37am

Excellent work, Dr. K. You did a great job pointing out the differences between vet med and pediatrics, as well as the similarities.

I would guess that the situation would be different 10-20 years ago. Most vets then (I presume) would have been staunch supporters of all vaccines. The difference is that in the meantime, there has been good science to demonstrate that a) the frequency of serious effects from some vaccines in some species is higher than previously thought and b) the protection from most vaccines is longer than previously thought. Combine those items with the increased number of vaccines on the market that are of minimal value (e.g., ringworm, coronavirus in dogs, etc.) and you get a situation where vets have been forced to acknowledge that one size does not fit all.

It also bears repeating: vaccines do not cause autism. The science is pretty unequivocal on that.

SBM

2
Does the end quote apply?
by on 04/22/2010 10:13am

Pet owners following a typical vaccination protocol may get their pets vaccinated for everything in their first year, then follow up with boosters regularly thereafter. Titers and time between vaccinations can make a big difference, but they're boosters for vaccines already given.

But when you're talking about a child's vaccination protocol (http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/recs/schedules/child-schedule.htm), you're not talking about a bunch of vaccines in the first year, then boosters yearly or every three years thereafter for life. You're talking about initial vaccines, the ones that will last through childhood or a lifetime. Titers don't really have an application here.

For what it's worth, non-compliance with child vaccination has led to a number of outbreaks in the past few years (generally, a non-vaccinated child visits overseas, picks up measles, brings it home and hundreds of people get sick--some die). There's no protection because the child was never originally vaccinated. People who aren't vaccinated are a health risk to everyone around them; it's not just an individual decision.

3
Clarification
by on 04/22/2010 10:25am

I don't think anyone is proposing no vaccines or even avoiding certain vaccines for children. The concern is the "fire hose" approach medical Dr.'s use for giving vaccines. I agree that if they can stretch the vaccinations out instead of the fire hose approach, why not?

4
Depends on where you live
by on 04/22/2010 10:32am

and what you do with your animals. For example, I have to board my pets at the vet when I go out of town for vacation, and for obvious reasons, they require up to date vaccines on my 2 dogs and 2 cats. I live in a small town and use the appointment for the vaccines on the dogs for a complete physical, and a nice chat with my vet, so I don't really mind the expense.
I suggested to my mom in Florida to tell her vet to do ELISAs on her 12 year old schnauzer (who has to take phenobarbitol for seizures), rather than giving the dog vaccines he doesn't need- the vet (one of the worst vets for overcharges I've ever met) wanted to charge $75 for drawing the blood and $50 for each ELISA test, because vaccinating is easier and more profit making than testing titers.
Did I mention he drives a Jaguar? And charged my mom $1500 for a dental and 3 extractions last year (the dog had had a dental two years prior)? I want to find another vet for my parents, since they're now both retired, and living on fixed income, but since I don't live in Florida, it's hard to do from 2000 miles away.

5
Not vaccinating
by on 04/22/2010 01:00pm

A lot of people are in fact proposing no vaccines, EAB.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/21/us/21vaccine.html

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2010/03/the_intellectual_dishonesty_of_the_vacci.php

In fact, you could just google this.

6
More differences
by on 04/22/2010 01:18pm

I see a couple more differences between human and pet protocols. As galadriel pointed out, humans are vaccinated in childhood and for the most part we're done. The only one I've been offered as an adult is a tetanus booster. Can you imagine getting annual vaccines as adults? That's what we're being told we should do for our dogs by the vaccine manufacturers. At this point I do rabies as mandated, and the rest I discuss with my vet depending on the individual pet.

The other thing I do think we need to keep in mind is that even if everyone in my neighborhood vaccinated their pets (and they don't), we have wildlife as a source of infection. Recently we've heard reports in my area of a distemper outbreak among raccoons, and there are plenty of other animals which my pets might come in contact with - squirrels, skunks, rats etc. This factors into my decisions about my pets.

7
Titers instead
by on 04/22/2010 02:22pm

My vet has no problem with not vaccinating (Rabies of course isn't optional), but, I can see why. They charge $179 for titer testing and that is way more than the DHLLP combo vaccine!
I still opt for the titers as I feel strongly about not over-vaccinating my dogs!

8
similarity
by on 04/22/2010 02:55pm

This discussion reminds me of the fact that the medical community has just woken up about overuse of antibiotics (both human and veterinary) and the subsequent development of MRSA

9
human childhood vacs
by on 04/22/2010 04:25pm

Personally knowing an affected family member of a 4 month old "healthy" baby that died 8-10 hours after receiving multiple vaccines, I disagree with the premise that serious and fatal reactions are "rare".

Also, since some of these human vaccines are priced over 100 dollars, sometimes $200, I also disagree that there is "no profit" in human vax.

I do agree, 100%, that the huge difference is not a matter of "refusing" the initial vaccines, but a matter of the "repeated dosages", that all veterinary colleges, now agree, are unnecessary.

10
yearly bloodwork instead?
by on 04/22/2010 04:44pm

Thanks for an engaging vaccination discussion! Having worked in the veterinary field previously, I knew the importance of getting the client in for the yearly exam and vax. But it seems to me what would be a better drive would be yearly bloodwork. That seems more of a necessity, particularly as animals age, and would be in so much better interest for the overall care-taking of the animal. I wonder if vet hospitals will ever change to that, as opposed to vaccinations?

11
by on 04/22/2010 05:36pm

This year we got a lyme test instead of lyme vaccine and caught one of the other tick borne diseases. The lyme vaccine is not favored by many so testing seems a better choice.

12
Vacinnationf for pets
by on 04/22/2010 05:41pm

I enjoy reading your articles. Thank you for your help.



Hoe often do you think indoor cats should get the upper respretory shot? Mine get it once a year, but I am beginning to worry about them getting shots. I have recently switched all nine of my indoor cats to a natural cat food in hopes that they will stay healthy and won't need a lot of shots, etc. They only eat Wellness Canned Cat Food.


Thank you!

13
Annual labwork
by on 04/23/2010 03:58pm

Amanda: I wholly agree on the issue of annual blood testing. Even before we moved to a three-year protocol on all core vaccines (4-5 years ago?), we started drumming up the importance of annual physical examinations and labwork. I know I must sound like a broken record to some of my clients when I explain (over and over again, year after year) that both are far more important than the vaccines, but I think it's worked. My clients take the annual more seriously now that they're getting the hang of the labwork thing.

14
On titers
by on 04/23/2010 04:06pm

Galadriel (and others): I was probably unclear on my titer comments. I've never been very big on titers because they only measure antibody levels. Something called "cell immunity," the other major arm of the immune system, cannot be measured. So it is that a high titer can fool you into thinking your pet is protected when s/he's not.

Consequently, I've often thought some veterinary hospitals (places I've worked at in the past) were titering more for income than for anything else (shocking, I know).

Nonetheless, I have come around some. It seems to me (and to immunologists) that antibody immunity and cell immunity correlate well enough that it's reasonable to use titers for vaccines as long as a high level is sustained, year after year. And, of course, as long as we're not talking about rabies vaccines, which are necessary for regulatory and human public health reasons.

btw, I included a clarifying statement about rabies in the post as I can see I never addressed it.

15
vet w/child MMR injured
by on 04/24/2010 12:39am

I have so much info on vaccine injuries it isn't even funny. My daughter suffered from a MMR induced encephalitis and is permanently injured and will never live on her own. I see reactions to vaccines in pets everyday. Most minor, but, still reactions. I am trying to sway my pracitce away from vaccines as primay income, but, money is money, and I need my salary to take care of my brain injured child. Oxymoron I guess........I use Big Pharma to take care of the daughter that Big Pharma took away from me. I am all for titers, even if they cost more........are shots more important or spending a little more dough to just check whats already there...........crucify me if you will..........DOCTOR SUSAN

16
FVRCP every 3 years
by on 04/26/2010 11:18am

Midgette,

FVRCP used to be yearly, but recently changed to every three years.

http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/clubs/mercer/_attach_/Mercer%20-%20Protocol,%20Feline%20Vaccination.pdf

17
Clarification
by on 04/28/2010 12:42am

I don't think anyone is proposing no vaccines or even avoiding certain vaccines for children. The concern is the "fire hose" approach medical Dr.'s use for giving vaccines. I agree that if they can stretch the vaccinations out instead of the fire hose approach, why not?

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About fully vetted

Patty Khuly, VMD, MBA

Photo of Dr Khuly

Dr. Khuly is a former petMD blogger and small animal veterinarian in Miami, Florida, where she practices medicine at Sunset Animal Clinic and serves on the board of the South Florida Veterinary Medical Association. She is a graduate of Wellesley College, the University of Pennsylvania School of Veterinary Medicine, and The Wharton School of Business.

As a significant sideline, she writes...a lot. She authors pet health columns for USA Today, The Miami Herald and Vetstreet. She also writes a popular monthly column for Veterinary Practice News and serves as regular contributor to Veterinary Economics, The Bark, and the Veterinary News Network.

Dr. Khuly lives in South Miami with her brood of hens, goats, dogs, cats...and humans.

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