Any idea of the calories associated with 8oz of this recipe?  I'm trying to keep my boy trim -- he's a mix of Great Dane, Fox Hound and St. Bernard.  His long back and legs and very deep chest make him pretty susceptible to joint issues so I'm trying to keep him happy but not chunky.  Can you also talk about mixing home-prepared with kibble?  I'm not confident enough yet that I can provide him all he needs and would like to keep a safety net in place for awhile....

I don't feed raw food to my cats but they tend to catch their own when they feel like it (birds, mice, voles, rabbit etc). However, I do find that the quality of pouches I feed them has declined and they leave half of it uneaten so it has to be thrown out. I give them cooked chicken and fish every so often and canned tuna every couple of weeks as a treat; I don't think I could manage to cook such a complicated thing - not even for us humans, come to that. But I would like to reduce the amount of food that's thrown away. Any ideas?

Cats have several varieties of dry food to much on at all times and, as I said, they all catch their own snacks, so the pouches are mostly for the jelly factor as far as I can tell. Any recipes for making a jelly? (I bet it involves hours of cooking. sigh)

Here's a post on raw (though note that I have advanced more in favor of raw since). Here's a post on raw, meaty bone-feeding that might help illustrate that. I think it at least partially addresses your questions, Heather.  

Catherine: It costs me waaay less to feed raw than it does to feed a commercial fod to my cats. About $1.25 per day for all three cats, with no vegetable or grain added. Premium canned (or probably even kibble) would be a lot more than that.

Heather: My understanding is that you should not offer weight bearing joints from large animals, as they bones from these areas are extremely dense and hard (so they can support the weight of these huge animals) and dogs can break their teeth on them.

Thanks for this post. I've had the idea to make my dogs' food at home for quite a while, but was unsure how to start. I've never really liked feeding my animals "kibbles'. It's just too much like breakfast cereals, which I think are a great, big marketing sugar-coated scam.But the canned foods aren't much better, and have a much greater negative effect onmy pets' teeth.

 As an aside, these "recipes" would probably work great in a slow cooker. I use one to cook fresh beans (though mostlyhigh-protein"beans" such as lentils and chickpeas since I can't eat a lot of leguminous beans such as pinto beans.) I also make meat stocks in a slow cooker, which makes bone removal less messy. After reading this post, I'm ready to try slow-cooker dog food.

I've been giving my dogs (a Corgi-lab mix and a rescued presumed Border terrier) more meat-on-the-bone bones lately, and their teeth appear to be cleaner. But I'm really unsure as to which kind of bones are safe (I've been buying "soup" bones.) What type of meaty bones, from which animals, should not be fed to dogs?

All due respect, Dr. Khuly, since there is no canine requirement for carbs at all, they wouldn't be carb starved with exertion.  It's an inexpensive way to add calories, and it makes the extruder machines work.    

I'm with Margot and Teri -- buy meat and bones and organs at the grocery store, freeze some, give to dogs.  I do rescue and have 14 dogs here and think that it costs, average per dog, about as much as a premium kibble would.

We enjoy treating our dogs as if they are little humans -- but their digestion and needs are not like ours at all.

Please please will you do a post about raw feeding, or refer me to it if you have already done one?

Thanks Doc!  Demystifying this, normalizing it is VERY helpful and builds my confidence.  I'm still fumbling with cooking for my dogs but I'm so glad I took the leap.  My girls' allergies are soooo much better and their coats are amazing.  At age 8, I think my Shiba has a healthy coat for the first time; she hasn't had a coat blow like this since she was 2.  Good thing I bought a yard and we've been spending time there because they have way more energy too.  (Not the last few days though.  It's 104 degrees here today, all time June record for us, but at least the humidity is lower than the norm - no rain since ???  We're doing our long walk at 3 AM!)

For those of you who find deboning difficult and time consuming, I recommend doing it while the meats are still semi-frozen. You will need to experiment a little to see the best stage of defrosting for you, but it is much easier to slice through meat when it's not wabbly and squishy. And I am with those who think that grains do not belong in pet foods, dog or cat. A small amount of veggies for dogs are OK.

I feed my dog a homecooked diet. And he is usually very interested in food of any kind however I occasionally eat on the floor in front of the TV and have no trouble leaving my plate on the floor while I leave the room. I wouldn't leave it there all day necessarily but its easy enough to teach leave it. In a house of three dogs, my dog is the only one who knows what leave it means however but the other two don't touch a plate full of food either...in that specific circumstance.

They do feel that if something hits the floor at any time its fair game though, unless they are convinced otherwise :)

Posey, I've been cooking for my dog since January. She loves her foodies, but doesn't try to go after my food. If I'm cooking for me, she might be in the kitchen, or not, but she pretty much ignores what I'm doing. If I'm cooking for her, she positions herself where she can supervise carefully. :) I make up about a week's worth at a time; that lets me get more variety in, and of course I'm only cooking for the one dog, and small one at that, so it's normally an hour or two on a Sunday afternoon. With my pupper close by, which is a big positive reinforcer for me. :)

I'm kinda like Margot, buy chicken at Sams - hunk it up, add whatever organ I can find, often heart and liver, if i have it in the house, throw it in the dish. Add other things as i find them on sale.

The birds however, are much more complex.  They get a grain/legume mix with fruit and veggies mixed in.  Very much like Dr. Khuly described what she does.  Takes at least an hour or so, not counting the soak, cook and cool time.  But, I make large batches and freeze in the little ziplock containers so all i have to do is thaw one a day.

Sounds great for many--whether for a dog or cat. It all depends on your pet's specific metabolic needs. That's why I recommend nutritionists. I wouldn't want to assume anything about your pets (practicing without a relationship with your pets and all that).

Dr. K, my vet told me to do 3 parts protein to 1 part vegetables. Is there a harm in feeding this way?

I'm with Anlina: If I had to do all that, my pets would be eating commercial.

• Buy meat, bones & organs (preferably in bulk)


• Freeze.


• Remove tomorrow's portion from freezer.


• At mealtime, "throw your dog a bone."

My dogs hate vegetables and fruit and will not eat them.  My cats don't need them.  Grains are nothing but bulk to a dog or cat digestive system.  My two dogs and three cats have been eating this way for almost five years and are healthy, shiny and have great teeth.

For Posey: Our dog doesn't eat homecooked, but she does eat quite a bit of people food, and in fact, is the 'pre-wash' for our plates before they go in the dishwasher.  She doesn't counter-surf, and won't touch our plates if they are on the table(but we wouldn't trust her with them on the coffee table).  She's a pretty submissive dog, so YMMV.  She's also not super-bright (probably a C+ student)  She will, however, watch us eat with big hopeful eyes, and sometimes drool copiously, which can be distracting.

I've thought off and on about homecooking for our pets, but know we'd have buy at least a small freezer, and don't know where we'd put it.

Dr K.: I have a bag of bones in my freezer from my last meal prep - a bunch of pork bones from some really cheap pork steaks I found. I usually save the bones to make something with, though the last time I did turkey legs I gave the bones to the cats to keep them entertained while I finished bagging. It was pretty cute to see a 5lb cat trotting around the kitchen carrying a turkey leg bone.

Stefani: I got my kitchen shears as a free bonus when I bought one of those "as seen on tv" knives. They're a cheap pair, but they do the trick.

Shears are also the best thing ever for cutting liver, which most knives just seem to want to slip over, and also gizzards, which I swear are the toughest thing in the world to try and cut with a knife. In fact, I probably use my shears more than I use knives in my cat food prep. They're just a fabulous tool to have.

I just found out about this site:

http://www.KnowWhatYouFeed.com

Has anyone tried a pill crusher on the potassium tabs? I haven't, but it works on virtually everything else. They're sold at pharmacies.

If you pressure cook chicken necks (or frames) for about 15 - 20 mins you can feed the bones so you get the benefits of feeding bone and don't have to do any deboning.  When bones are pressure cooked for the right amount of time they become chalky and completely safe to feed.  Any chicken bone will eventually become chalky if pressure cooked - leg bones seem to take 30 - 40 minutes and in fact I have done chop (sheep) bones but they take an hour or so from memory and I don't think this is economical.  I always double check (by crushing a couple of representative samples with a fork) that all the bones are in fact safe before serving.  I've never found an unsafe bone but I always check anyway. 

I do a couple of kilos (about 4.5lbs) around once a week and the only tedious aspects are removal of any visible chunks of fat (my boy's insides just do not like chicken fat in an appreciable quantity for some reason) and, of course, cleaning the equipment.

Pressure cooking results in lots of yummy stock which I usually reduce (boil/simmer off excess water) and feed for breakfast - don't want to give him a nice big drink that he wouldn't otherwise actually want or need and then crate him for the night!

Catherine: As I mentioned, this is a specific recipe for these dogs and offers carbs by way of meeting their unique caloric needs (they get tons of exercise and might otherwise be carb-starved for their heavy workouts if they ate pure protein--that, per at least one UC Davis nutritionist who helped formulate this recipe for them). I'm partial to all meat and veggies, myself, but grains make this affordable and environmentally friendlier.

Honestly, I think a lot of this diet's animal protein concessions come down to cost and environmental concerns. Though the meat is humanely raised, vegetarian and certified organic (expensive!), there's an environmental hit to all these animal proteins. High quality grains and lots of locally-grown veggies is one concession. Once I have my own eggs coming (three months away, I think) the animal protein content will likely go up. 

Lots of grains and other carbs -- no requirement for carbs, so why are they there? 

Thanks for taking the *scary* out of home cooking for people who may be hesitant!

We've been feeding raw and homecooking for about 12 years.  It's really quite simple once you calm down about it.  The trickiest thing, I have found, is getting the Ca:P ratio correct (or near correct, anyways - I've never been a stickler for details). 

When home cooking I have always had a GIANT pot (the hubby calls it my cauldron) and make enough food for everyone for the week.  I toss in whatever meats I feel like, all the bruised veggies I can find at the grocery store or whatever is left in my freezer, and a few little spices that have beneficial properties, like fresh parsley and garlic.  Everything cooks in a giant pot on low, low heat for a few hours.  I do everything in the morning and then simply leave the pot on the stove for a few hours to cool (or outside in the winter).  By the afternoon the bones are ready for removal, if there are any - I try to choose large cuts of meat that don't have bone in them, or have few bones in them.  I also add fruit at this point - not a lot, just enough to flavour things and add a few benefits you can't get from veggies.

Then I seperate each daily portion into ziplock baggies, freeze half and leave half in the fridge.  Each critter gets their own supplement blend.

I do not add onion under any circumstances.  That's my personal decision of course, but I just figure, why take the risk?  There are so many other things you can flavour food with, and I feel like the need for onion flavour is a human one, not a doggie one.

Raw, of course, much easier.  Not as much fun though.  I agree with Dr. K - cooking for the critters is fun.  :O)  However, having some commercial food ready and dogs willing to eat a veggie salad with canned fish on top if mom has forgotten to thaw something is helpful too.  Not ideal, but helpful in a pinch.

Stefani: Oxo makes a nice, inexpensive pair if you're not into sharpening them when they get dull (Target has them). Otherwise, go for the fancy Henckels at Bed Bath & Beyond--they'll last forever as long as you're willing to sharpen them yourself or have the guy at the hardware store do it for you every few months. I'm thinking since you'll only use them for one thing only you'll go for the Oxos. But beware: once you've been introduced to the sweet mysteries of a great tool you might find you'll have many uses for them.

Thanks, Dr. K re: water, supplements. The ONLY time they dissolved adequately was when I let them soak overnight.  The potassium gluconate, multivitamin, and oh so many salmon oil capsules turn into this funny gelatin looking thing overnight.

Anlina, I take it shears are some kind of kitchen scissors LOL.  I knew that.  I am sure mine aren't sharp enough, headed out for a new pair

Anlina, I am about to display my lack of skills in all things domestic:

WHAT ARE KITCHEN SHEARS????? LOL.  Seriously, no joke.

Sheyna - thanks for the response.  I probably should have clarified. 

For some reason, our dog doesn't show an uncontrollable interest in our food.  She loves her food and eats it when fed, but she does not steal food from the counters or our plates.  She'll sniff our food, but she won't take it.  My hubby is convinced this behavior will change if I begin feeding her raw or homemade food - regardless of whether or not it's only given via her food bowl at regular feeding times.

RE: counter surfing / Posey

 Dogs are incredibly opportunistic and I don't think what you feed them is going to change that.

The second thing I find interesting about what your husband believes is that he thinks that dogs recognize an inherent seperation between what they eat and what you eat. It comes from the same sources basically except that one is processed beyond the point of recognition.

Posey: I'm not the best person to answer this since it's always been a lifestyle choice of mine to include my pets in the kitchen begging circle. Hope someone else responds. 

And Barbara: Thank you for your sympathy card. I just received it in the mail. So sweet. All of you have been so supportive. Thank you again.

As to your Q: I always feed a multivitamin. I'm partial to Vetri-Science's chewable version called "Canine Plus." I used to recommend Flintstones before someone at the company decided Xylitol (toxic to dogs!) would make a great sweetener for some of this brand's offerings. But I always throw it on top.

As to switching: a five to seven day switch is usually best for all pets. Though some need zero transition time, it's always god to stay safe on this--diarrhea is not your friend. And this veggie-rich diet can cause gas for those unused to all the greens (I used kale).

Quantities? I find that I need to feed a larger volume of this particular recipe because of the uncooked veggie heaviness. If you're feeding one of the super-premium 450 calorie per cup foods (most are closer to 300), you'll need to feed about 33-50% more by volume. And, alas, it also means the stools are slightly larger because of all the fibrous residue. But then, a perfect stool does not necessarily a perfect dog make. 

Anlina: I'm loving the deboning technique. I have just the shears!. It may even prove faster that cooking it all together then scalding my fingers deboning after the fact. Just tell me you don't waste all that bone. Please tell me you make a nice reduced stock with it for drizzling the finished product (or in a nice pot of lentils for yourself). 

Stefani: The easiest way to dissolve these tabs is by letting them sit for hours in water. As for dried legumes, this makes things seem like so much less work. 

I have a question about feeding raw or homemade food to your pets - does it make them more likely to counter surf?  My hubby is convinced our pets will associate people food with their food if their diet is too similar to ours.  For those of you who have done this, what have you found?

Dr. Khuly: I guess if you like cooking then it's not a big deal, lol. I like to keep things very quick and simple for myself (and even making simple stuff takes me forever) so I couldn't imagine regularly doing such a production for the cats. I would if it was absolutely the best available option for them, but I'm glad that I was able to find something a little less work intensive that works for us.

Stefani: The easiest, fastest way to strip meat from chicken thighs and drumsticks is to use kitchen shears.

Slide the tip between the meat and the bone and cut all the way down, parallel to the bone. Peel the meat back part way with your fingers so you can see the bone in the gash you've made. Then, open the scissors every so slightly so that the blades form a very small V at the tip, but are mostly closed. Position the V tip at the end of the bone where the meat attaches and then just slide it along the bone. The meat will separate really quickly and cleanly. Repeat around the bone until the meat is detached.

If you're doing drumsticks, you'll probably need to either cut tendons that run from the meat to the end of the drumstick or pry the ligament off the bone so that it's still attached to the meat - a little bit tricky but not difficult once you get the hang of it.

I can debone a club pack of chicken legs or thighs in about 20 minutes with this technique (I mostly use it on turkey parts though, since the bones are just too big and hard for the cats to eat. They'll happily gobble up a chicken leg, bone and all, so I really don't have to worry about deboning chicken too often.)

This is my favourite resource for cat nutrition: http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawcat/ I feed the model promoted in this group and have been really happy with it.

Uh, okay now. That last pic confuses me. Thats for the pets right? Except you decided this is pretty good stuff, I'm starving, and proceded to eat all that in one sitting?

For those cat people unafraid of bone grinding and raw:

http://www.catinfo.org/makingcatfood.htm

This site, I believe, includes recipes for raw without bones (ie., supplementing the calcium source)

http://www.catnutrition.org/foodmaking.php

I've been making home-made food for my cats using a recipe given to me by a veterinary nutritionist, specifically formulated for cats with kidney disease, but she reassured me it's safe to feed to all my cats.  It is low phosphorous and runs between 36-40% protein, so it's in the philosophy of "it's phosphorous, not protein, that causes progression of CRF."

Only one of my cats is showing very early kidney changes.  All of my cats LOVE this food.  It doesn't have any grains or veggies -- chicken, eggwhites, chicken liver, and a bunch of supplements.

As a compromise for the worry about salmonella, I drop the meat in boiling water for minute or so to kill whatever may be on the outside.  It ends up cooked on the outside and raw on the inside. 

The problem is, it takes me an hour and a half to make 2 days worth of food for 4 cats.  I am going to need to get waaaayyyyy more efficient at this.

The de-boning and supplements are what takes so long.  I am not efficient at stripping chicken meat and skin off of thigh bones, and only slightly more adept at drumsticks. (the recipe calls for dark meat)

Then, the potassium gluconate tablets take FOREVER to dissolve in water, I end up having to fish them out of the supplement soup and crush them between spoons. 

I worry that the supplements will end up in chunks rather than fully dispersed and I worry that they will get "too much" in one bite. 

They love the food though.  I don't eat it.  Not big on partially cooked chicken for myself.

It is high time to start a switch for my dogs. After spending $15 for a 6lb. bag of kibble for my 2 youngsters and $30 for a 15lb bag for the seniors, surely I should come close $$$ wise and provide better quality (didn't need the canned this week or snacks).

Now if you were to follow the above mix, how would you transition and what would be a maintenance portion for 20lb dogs? Would a vitamin chewable cover any missing ingredients?

Deanna: About 2:1 is right. Dicalcium phosphate (available at feed stores) works for me. But the different meats and veggies carry different amounts (fish vs. chicken vs. bison vs turkey, etc), which is why I worry that a specific recipe formulated by a professional should be followed. Though this point is not as critical if you're feeding a commercial food as a base (which I do for added convenience), long-term feeding of any home-cooked fare--alone or in commercial combo--should be balanced. 

Dr. K., I'm really cautious about onions ever since my counter-cruiser got into the fajita pan on the stove. (One foot on either side of the pan, face inside, eating as fast as he possibly could.) We use a lot of onions and a BIG pan, so hard to tell how much onion he consumed, but we're guessing about a medium onion's worth. Ooooh, was he sick! Coming out of both ends! Nasty stuff. And yes, we did make a trip to the vet. He wasn't so bad off — about 1000 cc's of normal saline sub-Q to help his kidneys and a day later he was fine. But boy were those expensive fajitas! No onions or onion broth for my crew.

I do some home cooking for the dogs... meat has a lot of phosphorus in it, yes? Doesn't the phosphorus need to be balanced with calcium at a ratio of about 2:1? (I believe there are tables that show how much phosphorus in whatever meat you're using.) Please correct me if I'm wrong; I calculated the amounts I need to use long ago and can't remember the ratio.

Anlina: It's not really hard at all. As I said, it's kind of fun if you make a party out of it. And you really only have to do it once a month if you're efficient. 

Truth is, I love to cook (can you tell?), so I need few inducements to get into the kitchen--for my dogs or anything else.

zandperl: How about looking up a vet nutritionist for a specific recipe? It'll cost you a consultation fee but it's worth it. btw, I decided not to post the recipe I'm using because, frankly, it's very specific to my sister's dogs' needs. It isn't for everyone. A nutritionist is a great idea for anyone willing to cook. An avian nutritionist? Harder to find but the AAVN should be able to help if you contact them directly. 

It sounds delicious but time consuming and complicated. I think if it took me 10 steps to make food for my pets I'd be tempted to stick with commercial. I do raw feeding and I only have cats, so my process is much, much simpler.

1. Buy meat - lots of meat. Also buy some liver, kidney and whatever other squishy organ I can get my hands on, and some crunchy bone like chicken necks, wings or legs, or rabbit when it doesn't cost a fortune.


2. Cut the meat and organ into chunks (about .5 to 1oz, but I just eyeball it.) Leave the edible bony pieces as is.


3. Weight it into individual baggies - 5oz per meal for all three cats.


4. Seal all the baggies & toss into the freezer. 

No veggies, grains, grinding, cooking, supplements or anything to complicate the process. It takes me about 3 hours to prepare 3-4 weeks of food, some times a little less time, some times a little more, depending on whether I have big pieces of meat that need deboning (a pork shoulder roast is fabulous and cheap but wow, is it ever a lot of work.)

Sounds remarkably similar to my process making a veggie mix for my parrot - I do less meats, and more grains and eggs.  The part I'm always wondering about though is knowing the correct proportions - all my sources seem to agree that it should be 1 part vegetables (heavy on the leafy greens), 1 part beans, 1 part grains, and 1 part protein, but sources are vague on how big each "part" should be compared to the others, and the avian veterinarians I've asked aren't any more specific.