Here's another quote that might apply: "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose...".  IMO, you should indulge your emotional responses only to the extent you're willing to pay for the consequences or see some other pay for them.  Now that I'm close to 70, I don't care all that much about being careful about all sorts of things, it was a different story when I had small children.

I agree with Will.  The older I get the less I keep my mouth shut.  Someone needs to alert these people to their stupidity and who better to do it than the vet!  I don't know about refusing services because they'll just go elsewhere.  The kitty is the innocent victim in all of this - as usual.  Economics certainly plays a large part in this too.  Ultimately, it's your call.

Thanks for all the great information you provide.  Also thanks for the opportunity to vent about the rampant idiocy in our society.  Hope you have happy holidays.

It depends.

It's Heather Houlihan who does this (The post on her blog is called, btw "At least, don't buy this" - http://cynography.blogspot.com/2008/11/at-least-dont-buy-this.html) and I really do think she has some good points, and it's a policy I'd like to enact with my business, although it honestly hasn't come up yet. (I actually have MORE problems with a few local rescue groups who will adopt out ANYTHING, including dogs that are in really terrible shape behaviorally, and assure the owners that a basic obedience class and some love will fix all their problems.)

Have you talked to the family about this? "You realize that this is NOT how persians/ragdolls are supposed to be, right, and that you could be getting a much healthier cat AND not supporting poor quality breeders?" (I have a client with a pug with a soft palatte problem that thought his noisy breathing was 'normal' for a pug.) Expressed your concern and the ethical problems with mills and the difficulty of deciding whetehr or not a breeder is appropriate when you can't visit them in person?

First, I'd like to know if all the kittens came from the same breeder.  If not, are they trying to find reputable breeders and simply failing?  If that's the case, I'd have a hard time blaming them.  It's tough to find decent animal breeders and, once the animal arrives, the decisions get tougher because one has to decide whether to keep, love, and care for them or send them back to what one now at lease suspects is a poor environment.

As to your "family" physician.  She sounds like an arrogant dictator, doing far more harm than good.  She isn't practicing tough love, merely abusive; tearing down others to build her own ego even further.  I have no doubt she'll find herself in hell accounting for her own actions and harms to others.

Sometimes sugar coating it is good and other times it's not. One of my friends recently had a doctor, for the first time, come right out and tell her, "You will not get healthy until you exercise. Period. Your choice." It was a wakeup call and well-received. I would rather have a brusque doctor than one who's going to be 'polite' when directness would serve better.

I would thank them for making your car payment (or whatever) this month again!  I'm sure you've tried to educate them, but some people just won't listen.  I hope they learn something

I was out Christmas shopping today, and in front of one store, a man had some beagle puppies for sale - big sign "Christmas puppies!".  I didn't let myself walk over there.  Then, in the store, I saw a boy, maybe 9 years old, carrying a puppy.  It was listless, poor haircoat, thin, just ADR.  Someone else on the aisle asked him about it, and the boys said that his dad was selling the puppies out front, and they had just left their mom today, so that was why they were 'sad'.  I bit my tongue and walked away (what good would it do to berate a 9-year-old?).  As I left the store, I saw a crowd around the puppies, and I wanted to go try to educate them all.  Or perhaps just give them a business card for when the puppies start vomiting in 24 hours or so, so they have a vet's number!  I'm too chicken to do either, so just fumed while driving to the next store.

I can really relate to your family practioner.. Love the doctor that  treats you like family..

If anyone has any ideas how I can train Socks not to be a bully, I'd greatly appreciate it.. He's not opposed to going after any other dog, except a couple of friends.. I was supposed to babysit my brother's 4 month old Havenese.. and they changed their mind when Socks bit Charlie.. and the next time they met up Socks was snarling.. I think I learned my lesson on getting the runt of the litter..

Have a happy, and healthy holiday..

Shame on this person.  It might be excusable once... but multiple times?  No way, jose... How many blog posts, articles, columns and references are out there on the 9 zillion reasons not to buy a puppy or kitten on the internet, with no checking of references... either the buyer's or the seller's, no health guarantee, no return policy, no forever takeback.  Ethical breeders may have websites, but they will still check references.  Prudent buyers need to do the same. 

I don't know if there is truly a way to protect people from their own stupidity.  Obviously the client is willing to pay what it costs to treat these internet kittens and hasn't just dumped them on you or the nearest shelter or rescue which is the only good thing I can say. 

I think you said the only thing you could say, under the circumstances.

Actually, I said more than that.

But when I explained about how one should ideally go about sourcing a good breeder this client actually said (near-indignantly), "but there's nothing wrong with him!"

What can you say to that? Stopped me cold. How can you argue with that degree of denial?

Sigh...and people wonder why my kittens are twice as expensive as some other breeders...because they have seen a vet at least 3 x before they leave home, I stand behind my kittens, and I am a vet tech...They are worth it! And the people who wait for my kittens...they realize that. But I also see many people like those you describe come to the practice I work at and just shudder...

Oh...and they're all from different "breeders." Because they're different breeds and because it's always a must-have-at-holidays buy. Read: premium pricing on mega-cattery kittens. 

Then they decline all basic testing because..."the breeder said they tested him for everything." 

It would be great if you could say that they need to leave by a seperate exit because there IS something wrong with him and it wouldn't be right to expose other pets to him any more than they did in the lobby at the beginning.  However, in this client's case, they'd prob'ly get even angrier. and create more drama than necessary.  In the past few years have you been able to explain to them that the 1st cat has a chronic illness, or do they deny that too?  Did they understand the severity of the ringworm kittens illness, and the danger their family faced from them?  Is there any way that they could be even partially educated that it was through their inappropriate selection actions that they ended up with those issues, and those vet bills?

Of course, because all the cats came from different places I'm sure they feel they've 'gotten it right this time' and unless the kitten gets sicker in the next few weeks (so that it was clearly related to the breeder not really doing tests or even shipping problems, let alone breeding genetically unhealthy cats), they won't listen.  What are the chances that you could get them to start reading your blog - or maybe Pet Connection so as not to sound like you're tooting your own horn (as greatly tootable as - uh, that's not going to sound right, but I hope you know I meant a good thing there).  Maybe reading comments or posts from others might get them thinking, but, of course, it's a likely wishful thinking.  As I said the other day, some people just can't be educated.

Today this kind of issue comes up a lot."Shut up and put up" tends to be the status quo--because they are paying the bills and are in the hospital for health care.

I've never been one to do either but I also have been around long enough to wonder why I'd pick a profession that would make me survive the angst over such issues.

Despite what some commenters have posted, people do not go get the right information. The impulse buy, they "rescue" pups from pet stores and share other justifications.

They take the advice of friends and family because they trust them--and some will argue with the professional they have hired.

In my practice, I've had the luxury of screening behavior clients by phone prior to agreeing to see them. I turn many down and refer them elsewhere because I don't want to work with certain types of people--and over the years I can pretty well identify them from a few minutes on the phone.

I think one of the big issues animal professionals face is the oath to serve and take care of animals. Today, there is a wide mix of people who have animals.

In my area, we have those who overindulge their pets. The critters are overweight, underexercised, and poorly behaved.

Next, there are those who are in the middle of the road. Their pets are well taken care of but they won't spend thousands of dollars on an abcess treatment or surgery.

Then there are those who have utilitarian views of animals, don't spay or neuter, and think nothing of letting their animals roam freely--or about keeping them outside all of the time even in inclement weather...but their pets are thriving.

By no means is this an exhaustive list--I'm just sayin' that pet owners fall into different categories.

Overall, I've been mortified to find that most people fail to get treatment for their pets until it is at a critical point--when they finally do notice.

I remember feeling just skin and bones of a cat and asking the owner why he did not get the cat to the vet. He said, "There isn't anything wrong with her, she just lost a little weight."

Fortunately, he did take her in, there was something seriously wrong, and he does spend the money for her treatments three times a year.

He adores the cat and tries his best--but he is naiive as to the nuances of pet parenting.

Anyway, my long winded point is that you don't know the motivation or intent behind the behavior of the person that has obtained a new animal.

Animal professionals have the job of educating and providing service for those they chose BUT we all have an unwritten obligation to try and make the animal's life better.

I remember helping a groomer friend during a holiday rush, a dog came in so matted that numerous blades had to be used and the hair came off in one big mat. I won't get into gorey details but many of her clients only came in once a year.

Should she service them or report them?

If she did, they probably would not come in at all and the pet might not get the care it needed--even if it was once a year.

Until everyone believes the same things, has the same expendible income, enjoys the same education or luxuries, there will be vast chasms that will exist between pet owners aka pet parents aka pet guardians, etc.

Personally, I would source the location of the supplier and report them to their local agencies.

As for the client, well sometimes beating your head against the wall feels better than attempts to get things through thick skulls. LOL

One day perhaps the better business bureau would include breeders and other such sources in their list of businesses to lodge complaints about--but animals are considered personal property and therein lies the problem.

Not to mention the other problems that might arise if they were not viewed as personal property...

Pets, livestock, and other farm animals all fall under this same sort of issue animal professionals face. Change is needed on many levels.

Then, in my area there are vast differences between animal professionals. For instance, our country vets have a whole different take than urban ones. 

Okay, time to stop. But since I have not commented in a while I figured I was due! LOL

I was thinking of the comment one of you made (please forgive my holiday-addled brain but I cannot recall whom or where) on the subject of sourcing pets from inappropriate places. You (generous commenter) said you have a policy: Once is enough. Any client who brings you an inhumanely sourced animal again gets no joy. You’ll refuse to work with them.

I tink dat was me.

The whole issue of "inhumanely sourced" is, I admit, a tough one, and gets into territory where the professional may be trying to live the client's life with his pet.  Which is Not Cool.

Like Cait, I've seen rescues and shelters who do a poor job of screening, and adopt out animals they have to know are sick or behaviorally not appropriate for the adopters.  And I really want to smack them upside the head for sticking the adopters with a problem they don't know about until they get to me or the vet.

But where I draw the line is at mills -- people who are callously profiting from the suffering of the animals sold, and even more so, the breeding stock who exist as production units.

My obligation, though, is to very clearly lay out my policy and the reason for it the very first time, while educating them about the effects of their choice.  Most clients who buy from a pet store are in denial about having just funded a puppymill, though they really do "know" they've done so.  Most who buy over the internet or from one of the flea-market style Ohio puppy brokers are probably really ignorant.  After they talk with me, they cannot claim ignorance, and they know where I stand and why.

And I really do try to balance this with a positive attitude and kindness towards both puppy and owner.  The puppy needs help, the owner needs education.

The aim is, of course, not to "punish" the pet owner.  It's to spread knowledge about where puppies come from, and deny future money to those who inhumanely exploit animals and people for profit.

Kitten mills are Not My Department, and I know little about them.  I suppose they have some of the same field marks as puppymills.

I am a computer technician.  I used to work on computers in the home.  I had to work to reinstall anti-virus many times on the same machine.  I have worked on machines sitting under a framed bible quote with more human on animal porn and other unmentionalbe sexual and perverted acts being unknowingly cached in the temporary file folder.  The only thing, in my mind, that I am bound by morale obligation to report is crime, be it child porn or financial shenanigans.

My brother is a resp. therapist.  As such, his job requires he work with folks that have smoked and drank to their hearts content, then required medical care because of it and yes, they come back again and again and again.

We have a saying in the IT field; if a customer knew what they were doing, we'd be out of work.  I believe you to be the same way.  At the end of it all, the primary purpose of your being paid is so you can eat.  The more work you do, the more you make.  Now if the kittens were being beaten, that's one thing, but these people honestly care for the animal so it is your job, your duty, not only to them, but to your pocketbook to do what's right by the animal, just like I do with computers and my brother does with patients.

One more thing.  I read where you stated they decline all basic testing.  I won't touch a computer unless I am allowed to run a basic A/V and diagonstic on the machine, the IT equivilant of running basic tests.  It's required, bottom line.  I'd tell them that.

OH, and let me get on my high horse one more time.  I think that ALL breaders, reputable and otherwise, ought to rethink the whole concept of breeding cats and dogs for a basic companion animal while we have rescue organizations full of loving, healthy animals that have numbered days because folks would rather spend hundreds on a "pedegree."  Please forgive my bluntness, but I don't think a good breeder can complain about a bad one when the motivations are the same; to get paid.

EAB, you need to get off your ridiculous high horse about ALL breeders.  Good breeders ARE good because their motivation is NOT to make money.  They put so much more money into the care and testing and socialization and training and campaigning (agility, obedience, hunting, and confirmation, depending on various breeds and needs) that they never make a profit.  This is in COMPLETE contrast with bad breeders, whether you would call them puppymillers or 'just' BYB and 'oops' litters.  The GOOD breeder makes it perfectly clear to the buyers who they carefully choose for their well-loved puppies, that if they can't keep the dog, for any reason, they will take the dog back.  BAD breeders often don't even let buyers know where they live, let alone give them any help with any issues, that is if the buyers can even get in touch with them again.

Those BAD breeders are where 99% of the dogs in shelters come from.  Breed rescues take in dog from BAD breeders all the time, and almost never from GOOD breeders.  If you don't have the sense to understand that intellectually, why don't you actually research GOOD breeders?  They are out there, but most people don't want to spend the time it takes to find them (often by going to all those events above and talking to the people and proving to them that a dog they sell to you would be getting a good home.  It is the lazy owners who are giving up dogs to shelters.  Do you want to lump all owners together and blame GOOD owners equally with BAD owners?  'Cause that would just as sensible as your idea.  

But what is the motivation to breed?  Your providing companion pets for the populus?  Great, but it appears to me that we already have a plentiful supply.  Now if you are selling the dog for a specific purpose that the breed was meant for, fine.  But if your dogs or cats, which admittedly have been bred with care, are being sold only as companion animals, why not instead limit your supply and point the person looking for a companion animal to the nearest shelter? 

The shelter I work at has pedegree dogs, but they are not from bad breeders.  Truth be known, the ones from bad breeders with the related behavior and medical issues are not put up for adoption; they are put down (sad, I know).  Instead, most of these shelter full breed dogs are from people that couldn't take care of their dog.  They fell in love with the 5Lb lab and out of love when it reached 50Lbs, the novelty wore off and they either mistreeted the dog or they just  dropped it off, paid their $10 fee, and left. They got tired of the dog wanting walked, or wanting attention all the time; or their kid got nipped once because the kid mistreated the dog and the dog retaliated.  It's almost never because the dog has a medical or behavior problem.  As far as the mutts (my passion, frankly) they are products of another source of social responsibility.

I'll admit you are selling a product known as a puppy, a product that the shelter's don't have much of.  But in a year, that puppy is a dog; and we have plenty of those already.

Yeah, I am on my high horse.  I think that every person, man, woman, and child, ought to go to the shelter and adopt a dog and put the companian animal breeders out of business.  Now if one needs that specific breed, I get that, but for just companionship; nah, you aren't doing anyone any favors by being a breeder.

You just ignore the things I said that refute what you don't want to hear, don't you, EAB?  As I said, GOOD breeders don't let their dogs go to just anyone who will get tired of a dog over having to walk it, for cryin' out loud.  That goes right back to the bad OWNERS.  If all those purebreds - and it's not just purebreds, it's a ton of mixed breeds of all kinds that end up in shelters - turned in by bad owners, should be adopted by "every person, man, woman, and child" there's going to be a lot of people who turned in dogs adopting other ones, and just doing the same thing all over.  Your reasoning in flawed in such a fundamental way that it amazes me that you don't understand how glaringly wrong you are. 

Yes, there are lots of dogs at shelters all over, but if someone wants a specific thing from their dog, just any dog isn't going to be a good match and keeping a dog you don't mesh with doesn't lead to the best outcome.  It sounds like you'd force people to just take a dog because it's there and needs a home.  Whether someone wants a dog for a specific activity, or just to watch tv with, they should be allowed to have the dog of their choice - not yours.  Maybe they'd find their perfect match at a shelter, but maybe they'd find it through serious research and working with a good breeder who is trying to breed healthy, tempermentally sound dogs - which, at a shelter, are a complete crapshoot in finding. 

I was just at a great shelter yesterday, giving them extra info on dogs that a neighbor turned in.  They have a several dozen animals (dog/cats/rabbits) that might be a great pet for me, but I already have 5 pets (4 dogs/1 hamster) and can't pick another.  Do I think that the people down the street from me who turned in the two dogs should go to a different shelter (they being part of that "every person" mandate you talk about) and get a dog.  Hell, no.  They are bad owners and should not have a pet (I feel sorry for the 2 goldfish they still have).  Evidently the rarified air you're breathing while up on your high horse has depleted some oxygen and it's making you unable to think clearly on this subject, but you just keep sniffing and thinking you have the solution to the problem.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.  My point is that shelters are not making more of a product that is already in abundance, breeders are.  The idea that shelters, which have good, healthy, well mannered full breeds as well as mixed, are a "crapshoot" is a bunch of bologna.   There are bad shelters, no doubt.  Their are also bad breeders.  To say that your full bred dog is going to be better than one provided by a shelter, mmm, sounds like someone else is on a high horse.

I repeat, the shelters in our area have yet to manufacture IA add to the overpopulation of dogs in this country.  I don't really care if the pup has a piece of paper from a qualified breeder or not.  I think until we, as a pet community, get the pet population under control, we have no business breeding more, even if they are a gold plated pedegreed whowhatsits.  Thing is, I think if someone played "oven mate" for a day and had to personally put these dogs down, they would feel the same way.

EAB you are an idiot.  If no one breeds, or is allow to breed in very few years we will have not pets. That is what the ARs are trying to do. And apparently idiots like you and I am starting to beleive Dr Khuly.  I know I will no longer be reading this blog for any knowledgeable info.

EAB said: "My point is that shelters are not making more of a product that is already in abundance, breeders are."

I know of a guy who adopted an intact dog from Animal Control. Failed to make the neuter appointment, and bred the dog (on purpose) multiple times.  A couple of years later he presented the dog for discount neuter because "it's really expensive to have dogs." Grant money helped pay for the neuter of this dog who's neuter was already PAID for at the time of adoption years before! (And in the meantime this dog helped create TWO litters of pups.) I heard this same guy took some young (intact) dogs to Animal Control...seems his daughter lost interest in mushing.

Another local "Shelter" went out of business when the owner died in a tragic accident. Other rescues pitched in to help. The pregnant dog and the newborn pups were fostered and found homes pretty quick...and the young (intact) animals as well, although they weren't intact after we got each and every one of the altered!

I volunteer as a foster home for a local shelter. And yes, she'll send a pet into a home with behavior and medical issues. (So will I!) Is it better to have the animal go into a loving home and be one creature with one or more humans to train, love and care for it? Or languish in a shelter setting where you're not sure which one sneezed or who barfed, or who has the runny poop because they're all playing together?!? Or do you keep them isolated in cages or on chains so you know who's poop is whose, and they're all bored, lonely and lacking in love and attention and socialization 24/7?

Tough choices. Here are my rules: Life is better than Death. Be nice to the animals (that includes the human ones) and Share.

My vet has refused clients. She also refuses specific services like declawing cats or docking tails and cropping ears. But she's amputated legs, wings, toes, feet and more if it's in the best interest of the animal. Nobody HAS to personally put these dogs down. The people who kill animals (for whatever reason) CHOOSE to do so. My vet makes house calls for appropriate euthanasia.

I choose to read this blog. I appreciate those who choose to comment. Thanks Dr. K for "putting stuff out there" to help us all thing. Blessings to all in the year to come.

-lynnO

Daisy Acres Critter Services

Two Rivers, Alaska

How about this new rule? 

-A breeder is responsible for every dog; for as long as the dog will live.  If someone tires of the dog, it is the breeder's responsiblity to take it back, not a shelter.

-A hunting license is a form of animal population control.  I think breeders ought  to be the same way IE you have to get a license from the state first, and if the shelters are overpopulated, you get no license.  Breeding without a license is a crime and treated as such.

-There is a considerable tax on pedegrees being bred and sold.  There is also a credit for breeders that run a shelter, and a credit for those that provide shelter dogs to the community.  The cost is passed on to the consumer, just like every other business.

To LynnO:  I can assure you that any shelter around these parts either has the animal altered prior to adoption or, if age is a consideration, provides a coupon for such a procedure.  We cannot be real selective in regards to a potential owner, I will go right out and admit that outright; we cannot afford to be with the number of animals we get. 

Really, if you want a purebred anything or whatever kind of animal, all one needs to do is go to petfinder.com and you'll find a gazillion of 'em, even rare pedegrees.  And no, they aren't all problem children though I will admit that some of them suffer issues due to the hell that they have been through.  Ours did.  She had all kinds of behavior issues.  Two months of work with her, baby steps, and she is now an AKC Canine good citizen certified, she is allowed in most businesses in our town, and is routinely walked on our trails by the river with no need for a leash.

Our Tina had been returned twice and was less than two weeks away from the oven.  I doubt if anyone, even a breeder, could have looked into her eyes and put her down.

Forgot one thing...if someone does come in and want a well adjusted dog, we have plenty of those too.  I don't want to make it sound like a huge majority of dogs from the shelter are wacked as that simply is not true.

Ok, I'll shut up...just a link for all of you to consider:

http://www.usatoday.com/life/lifestyle/pets/2009-12-29-pet-talk-new-homes_N.htm

Hello All! New to the blog!

Can't help but feel the frustation of Dr. K as she deals with clueless clients who repeat mistakes. One of my least favorite client's senior dog was diagnosed with bladder stones and had them removed via cystotomy. The owner refused to change the dog's diet from Chinese soup (yes, the only thing the dog ate was egg drop soup and was a whole other issue between us) to a prescription diet to prevent stone formation. Three months later the dog had a urethral obstruction with NEW stones that had formed. We got him through the emergency but she still refused to change his diet or have another surgery formed. Months of chronic stone-induced urinary tract infections later the dog developed pyelonephritis, or kidney infection. Because the pyelonephritis went uncheck and untreated (don't get me started on this one!), he developed renal insufficiency from chronic kidney damage. He eventually died from kidney failure.

Several weeks ago the same client brought in her cat for urinary tract issues. Of course the cat had elevated kidney values and abnormalities in its urine. When we recommended submitting urine for culture, the owner asked why this was important in her animal and balked at additional testing and treatment. Did we really have to spend $80 to rule out a kidney infection? *bangs head against desk*

There are folks in this world who live cluelessly. You can't get away from it. I would love to fire this client because she annoys me, but as a protector from animals' suffering, I am pulled back to my veterinary oath. I treat her pet, not for the money, but because I feel I need to be an advocate for the pet when the owner fails to do so.